H/C/I Vortech wont run well

[91 white tsi]

I put my new engine in a buddies car. basics of it are 302 with DSS forged internals windage tray and girdle, AFR185cc heads topped with Holley systemAX upper and lower with 1"spacer being feed from a vortech S trim V1SC W/3.33 pulley. Cam is a custom comp ground for the heads about 550 lift.

42 lb injectors with mass air calibrated, fuel pressure reg, and 3:1 FMU
Car runs and idles fine but WOT is horrible. We have a wide band and it was lean and only seeing 6 psi. I fattened it up by raising the fuel pressure but it still only went a 8.8 at 83mph in the 1/8th

Questions, what should the base fuel pressure be?
What kinda of timing should i run?
How much timing does the stock distributor ad?
Any other suggestions on how to get it to run mid 7s?
has a 255lph fuel pump. thanks for the Help ---------Dave

 

[ninety15.0]

What A/F ratios are you seeing at cruise and WOT?

 

[91 white tsi]

I have only riden in the car for 2 pulls. First pull was 17s and 18s breaking up really bad and i told my friend to get out of it anytime he sees AF above 13 so we shut down. Next pull i raised the fuel pressure and its a slug off the line like its loading up with fuel seeing like 13 or 14 AF idle and at first punch then drops to 12.5ish to red line but only hits 6 psi with a 10 psi pulley on it.

 

[tunedin302]

Since you have 42lbers, you can dump the FMU.

 

[91 white tsi]

If you readmy first comment you would have seen that it was lean indicating i need more fuel AKA turn up the FMU not remove. I already ran it with out it and it was worse. It is the same fuel settings he had on his old turbo engine and for some reason its lean on mine

I dont believe you can ditch the FMU unless you have a tune do to the need of a linear fuel curve. Vortech supplies a 16:1 FMU with their kit for stock injectors and even say you should use a 3:1 or 2:1 FMU for 38 and 42lbs injectors.


I need to know what base fuel pressure should be and base timing and then ill go from there. Any one out there run a blower that wants to help me out???

 

[RacEoHolic330]

Are you running any kind of timing retard system? The base fuel pressure should be set to stock (40psi) and the base time should be 10* with the spout out. Those setting are what worked for me..other people may have different setups. You really need to get this car tuned with a chip or invest in a PMS or Tweecer. I wouldn't keep doing WOT pulls with a car that is not tuned. Those heads and intake are huge, so you probably won't see any better than 8lbs at best.

 

[BLOWN 5.0 FOX]

fmu for stock injectors make them flow like larger injectors, therefore the fmu for 42s also make them boost more psi and act like 50-60 # inj. Unless your running high boost you should not need more than 42#, not to mention if your running an fmu and 20+ lbs of boost thats messed up. Id double check sensor readings and timing. Too advanced and you will see detonation. If your not seeing the AFR you want , Look into getting it tuned.

 

[91 white tsi]

I would take the FMU off if i was running rich but thats not the case. I just set base fuel pressure to 40 and turned the FMU all the way up and was till seeing 15+ AFs so i turned the fuel pressure up to 44-45 and it came down to like 14.5s but still ran like *****. I AM NOT TACHING IT OUT. i go WOT for 1/2sec to let the AF settle then lift when they are wrong.
Why would it be so lean with 42lbs and a 1:1 fuel pressure reg and an FMU. I do not under stand this

 

[Flavadave4]

What brand MAF? Have you tested the Voltage at the MAF?

 

[91 white tsi]

No i have not tested the voltage. How would i go about doing that and what should i be looking for. I believe its a C&L but im not 100% sure.

 

[ninety15.0]

You are going to need a tune...i just dont think you are going to get there by jsut adjusting fuel pressure and timing. The computer can compensate for changes in fuel pressure by adjusting pulsewidth/duration but only to a very small degree. I agree with the others that you need to ditch the FMU and get a tuner. You need to get those A/F down to the 12's. I also agree that the heads and intake are very good flowing so you are not likely to see anymore than 6-8 pounds of boost with that pulley.

 

[91 white tsi]

That all is making sense, but I did ditch the FMU last night and it was still lean at 40 psi base so i turned the Fuel pressure reg all the way up and it was down the mid 13s on the AF which is still to lean. Would i be better to swap back in my 19lbs stock mass air and go with the FMU that vortech sent? I know there kit is for a stock mustang and these heads are slightly better than stock, so would that me even worse. The main problem is its my engine but in someone elses car and they dont wanna get there ECU tunned. Im in the process of trying to get him to pull it and leave it on an engine stand till my car is ready for it so i can do it right and get a tune. I just wanted to get it running and broken in for when im ready to run it..
thanks for the advice everyone----_Dave

 

[RacEoHolic330]

Those heads are A LOT better than stock. The exhaust valves on the 185s are damn near as big as the intake valves on the E7's. I don't think its a good idea to put the 19lbs back on the engine. The fmu that the kit comes with is designed for a stock engine. Your car will definitely be making more power than a stock engine with a blower.

You say that you have a 255lph fuel pump. Are you talking about an in-tank pump or the t-rex pump that came with the kit?

 

[ninety15.0]

I was thinkin about that too...if you dont have an inline pump then you are probably not able to get enough pressure to the injectors under load. It sucks that the motor isn't in your car...maybe swap computers??? idk man this is a wierd scenario...how long till you car is done?

 

[91 white tsi]

This scenario is wrose then youd like to think but good at the same time.
Basically i stumbled across a mustang for sale for 3K, stock running mustang but all these parts were new in the trunk, half of it was assembled and the other half was scatered around the trunk. Therefor i didnt have all the parts that came with the kits and the guy had ordered 3/8 rockers when AFRs head studs are 7/16 so i have a spare set and had to buy the right ones. Just lil miss matched parts but high dollar parts. and i took all the aftermarket parts out and put it together and sold the car for 3500, making the parts free(or i got paid 500$ to take the parts)
So no i dont have the T rex that was suppose to be in the kit.
The car it is going to be in is my daily driven 82 ntoch back that has a straight 6 and C3/C4 in it right now, so itll be a month or two till i can buy a K member and swap everything over.
My buddy had a turbo engine in his that the wrist pins backed out and scared the block, but he was running the same fuel set up and was making over 450 to the wheels but it was a lil to lean for my liking. He doesnt want to change anything on his car and i dont want him to run my engine any more but he wants to. its a push and shove everyday since we are in the points race this year at the local track. Sorry for the long winded story i just want you to know where im coming from.

So what is best at this point? Order the T rex and run no FMU??
I have MSII for my car but dont have the harness to hook up to the stock harness yet or i would swap that in for the time being.
I will try to do what ever you suggest is best but its hard to convience him!!!

I also have experience tunning as i have a 527 awhp talon i built and tuned myself, but im new to the mustang world:SNSign: ----------Dave

 

[tunedin302]

I was just trying to help in my previous post and most often the FMU is a serious cause of tuning issues. I didn't thoroughly read all of your posts so forgive me if I missed something. First, I would make sure you have a good fuel pump in place that can supply the pressure at higher RPMs. You can go with the T-rex but anymore it is better to just go w/ an intank Walbro 255 lph high-pressure pump for forced induction. Second, I would ditch the FMU and keep the 42lbers in place. Third, you said you have a C&L so you can try turning the MAF (I believe) towards the fender to richen it up. Turning it towards the motor will lean it out (Ibelieve but I can''t remember which direction it goes). I have a strong feeling that a lot of your problems stem from your MAF. I would ditch the C&L and pick up a PMAS or Pro-m for a s/c application. Lastly, you need to get a tune before you go out and hit WOT - blown headgaskets and fried pistons aren't fun.

 

[Daggar]

I've skimmed through this thread and see a few things. One of the things that stuck out from being repeated is something to the effect of:

"Why is it leaning out without the FMU".

It's because you're trying to run boost on the stock fuel tables with 42 lb injectors and attempting to fool it all with a C&L mass air meter, that's why.

I believe you've said that you have a 255L in-tank fuel pump? If so, that's plenty. You NEED to get the damned thing electronically tuned and not try and band-aid the thing together.

Aftermarket meters are designed to try and mimic the signals necessary to fool the EEC into sending an appropriate amount of fuel to the combustion chamber based upon a rough estimate of a user determined fuel injector. The further you get from a base-line (i.e. adding boost), the further you're going to get from the desired AFR.

The original EEC fuel tables were designed for 19 lb injectors and a relatively narrow bandwidth and low HP. Not only have you extended that bandwidth and HP but you're also packing boost on-top of it. It's doable if you have a magic injector that will "act" like a 19lber but you don't. Instead you have a 42 lb injector that if "fat fingering" a fuel map made for a 19!

Enough is enough. Get the combination properly tuned and your fuel maps and transfer curve modified to allow for the extra air, efficiency, larger injector, and added atmospheric pressure from the boost.

You will discover in short time, that those 42 and a 255L in-tank is MORE than enough to feed the combo you're attempting to feed.

One last note:

The C&L many times, does a very poor job of providing a repeatable, linear transfer curve to follow. The air across the meter and sample tube need to as near "head-on" and it can possibly be made. You might want to consider getting a meter that does not use a sample tube.

Good Luck.