Has anyone retarded the stock cam?

Black95GTS · Dec 9, 2005

I was digging around Hardcore 5.0 and lookin at some old threads... Ed Curtis was posting about his success retarding the stock cam 4 degrees and using 1.7 rockers. Just wondering if anyone has experience with this and results? He had a Fox with ported stock heads and ported stock intake running high 11s NA. Yep, you read that right! I guess it was not impressive on the dyno at all but the power curves were extremely broad. Just lookin for some feedback on this.

Adam

blk9450 · Dec 9, 2005

i used a b cam retarded 4 degrees with stock ported heads and ported lower. worked great but no track times or comparative data. im worthless

final5-0 · Dec 9, 2005

Adam

You gotta watch out when dealing with Ed!

He's got more tricks up his sleeve than Bayer's got asprin pills.

Grady

blk9450 · Dec 9, 2005

final5-0 said:
Adam

You gotta watch out when dealing with Ed!

He's got more tricks up his sleeve than Bayer's got asprin pills.

Grady

hey, my last name is Bayer

final5-0 · Dec 9, 2005

I forgot until just now ...............
when we were kids, a friend moved back the cam on an old school Stang with a 289.

Lost some low end but it did pick up somewhat on the other end which is about what you'd expect.

Can't remember if he moved it back 2 or 4 degrees.

IIRC it was not a big difference but it was noticable.

Seems like Ed's little tip would delay the events but offer more lift.

Wonder what would happen if you loaded that stuff in something like DeskTop Dyno to see how much difference it would make?

Grady

HISSIN50 · Dec 9, 2005

Mike (Thumper) and Tom have both played with cam timing (though I think Tom might have advanced his). They might have some feedback on a stock cam. Tom's torque curve is pretty sick.

FWIW, we should mention to future searchers that this is for stockish symetrical cams. Custom grinds often have additional retardation or advance built in, and asymetrical cams can get funky if one tries to mechanically advance or retard.

95COBRA241 · Dec 9, 2005

I had the stock cam retarded 4* on my '89 GT. It was supposed to move the powerband up into the higher rpms. I did this when I changed from 3.55's to 4.10's. Worked well in the SOTP department.

ROLLIN5.0 · Dec 9, 2005

95COBRA241 said:
I had the stock cam retarded 4* on my '89 GT. It was supposed to move the powerband up into the higher rpms. I did this when I changed from 3.55's to 4.10's. Worked well in the SOTP department.

Please clarify. Did you have them done at the same time as in didn't drive it after the gear, but before the cam, or after the cam, but before the gear? If they were literally done at the same time, the gear could have been responsible for the feel of the car. I am very interested in this also.
Brandon

yellow1995Cobra · Dec 9, 2005

u thinking about doing this? You cheap *****, just buy a aftermarket cam

95COBRA241 · Dec 9, 2005

ROLLIN5.0 said:
Please clarify. Did you have them done at the same time as in didn't drive it after the gear, but before the cam, or after the cam, but before the gear? If they were literally done at the same time, the gear could have been responsible for the feel of the car. I am very interested in this also.
Brandon

You're probably right it was more of the gears than the cam. I did it at the same time. I wanted a little more umf, so I was told to change to 4.10's. I was worried about having high rpms too soon. It was suggested that I have the stock cam retarded 4* to alleviate this concern. Told it was an old "Ed Smith" of New York fame trick.

Muy_Pyro · Dec 10, 2005

Hey Guys, just reading thru this thread ... It's prob. a little old, But I have a question (yeah, I'm retarted), But can someone explain Advancing and Retarding your timing, Why is this benificial ?? Thanks!

final5-0 · Dec 10, 2005

Basically it is like this

Advance the cam for more low & less high end
Retard the cam for less low & more high end

Just a way of shifting the power band in the rpm range.

Grady

HISSIN50 · Dec 10, 2005

Muy_Pyro said:
Advancing and Retarding your timing, Why is this benificial ?? Thanks!

I would also say (though I am sure it is not the case on this thread), that some folks get ignition timing confused with cam timing. They are very unrelated.

Cam timing is like Grady said - changing the centerline events in relation to the piston displacement at a given time.

Ignition timing is purely when one fires the spark in relation to the piston's location.

final5-0 · Dec 10, 2005

HISSIN50 said:
I would also say (though I am sure it is not the case on this thread), that some folks get ignition timing confused with cam timing. They are very unrelated.

Cam timing is like Grady said - changing the centerline events in relation to the piston displacement at a given time.

Ignition timing is purely when one fires the spark in relation to the piston's location.

JT

Are you trying to say that ............................

TIME is not necessarily TIME

Grady

mo_dingo · Dec 10, 2005

Just a sidenote. The stock cam is pretty retarded by itself. You should get an aftermarket one.
Scott

HISSIN50 · Dec 10, 2005

final5-0 said:
JT

Are you trying to say that ............................

TIME is not necessarily TIME

Grady

Not at all. One is a magazine and one is a Hootie song.

Some peeps seem to get the timing relationship between cam and piston events, and ignition timing confused though (as if advancing ignition timing has some effect on mechanical timing. Advancing the ignition timing does not change the valve-to-piston event-timing).

As we all know, the dizzy is driven off the cam, so playing with the cam timing can affect the ignition timing. But we tune around that since we care about pinging and that comes from the relationship between the piston and the spark event (cam timing is largely ignored in this tuning).

I have no idea if that clarified what I mean. I just wanted to say something because some folks get the ideas confused, and if one only does a search, they might be confused (this confusion seems to pop up on the fox side pretty often).

All you folks knew all that, so it was probably too elementary for y'all. Grady, if you disagree, I ask ya to correct me. Differences in viewpoints often just comes down to symantics.

final5-0 · Dec 10, 2005

As always JT!

We see eye to eye!

Just funnin with ya a bit!

Grady

HISSIN50 · Dec 10, 2005

final5-0 said:
As always JT!

We see eye to eye!

Just funnin with ya a bit!

Grady

Well ya got me Grady. I thought I was wrong about something or was being (as usual) too ambiguous.

I once mentioned that you remind me of an existentialist buddy of mine in school - you two have the same 'speech' patterns. I never had a clue when he was being serious or not either, especially in written prose.
He was a very cool dude and an amazing thinker. Matter of fact, he chose to go to a college which doesnt give letter grades.

Black95GTS · Dec 11, 2005

yellow1995Cobra said:
u thinking about doing this? You cheap *****, just buy a aftermarket cam

Yeah yeah yeah you and your rich 40 year old guy mid-life crisis car can shut it.

Just thinking about power curves... With the 4.10s and the Trick Flow I'm lacking above 5000, and if I can retard cam timing then I can boost the high end a little bit. Cheap dollars for good results. I will definately be spraying the car this spring, so if I can have a 12 second car with basically an intake while I save for the H/C, I'll be happy.

JT - No, definately not talking about spark! But I can see how some peeps might get confused.

Adam

yellow1995Cobra · Dec 11, 2005

Black95GTS said:
Yeah yeah yeah you and your rich 40 year old guy mid-life crisis car can shut it.

Adam

You hurt my feelings. I like my 40 year old mid life crisis car

Has anyone retarded the stock cam?

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