Head Change on new Ford 345HP crate engine

outlaw66 · Feb 21, 2007

well hell, i didn't want to start "cam wars". I'm not comfortable enough to order a custom grind since there seems to be so much available from ford and elsewhere. Since the new engine is laying on the shop floor, i'd rather change the cam now rather than after the install. I think the z cam should be adequate for my needs and based on D. Hearns info and the fact that he's running one and is happy with the performance, i think i'll go that route for now. i'm not getting much feedback on switching the heads so i guess i'll run the installed x heads. I just wanted a little more cam than what the B offers. thanks to all the commenters....and...if anyone has any additional info as to why i should or should not use the Jegs heads I have, please give me some feedback. as someone mentioned earlier, it will cancel my warranty, but so will the cam swap...but i like the idea of another 25-30 HP simply by changing cams. Thanks guys...as always there is a wealth of knowledge on this site.

outlaw

D.Hearne · Feb 21, 2007

Outlaw, I went back in my Ford Racing catalog and they state in it, that your heads and springs can be used with all FMS rollers except the "Z" cam. So you'll have to swap springs for that one. I don't know what the difference is, the X and Z have only .010 difference in lift at the valve, that seems insignifigant as far as spring bind would be concerned. You could also get close in specs to the "Z" with the "F" cam used with 1.7 rockers, just .010 less lift & 2* less duration. It also says the "Z" needs 120 lbs seat pressure & 340 lbs open. I know I didn't do a spring change on my Canfield heads for it, but I'd have to go look up the spring rates again, I don't recall what they're rated at.

302 coupe · Feb 22, 2007

D.Hearne said:
Have you ACTUALLY run one, then swapped just the cam out for an expensive custom grind? And after the swap, did the power you were "missing" register on the seat of the pants meter? I've run both the B & Z and both can't be beat for the price. Second hand B cams can be had for $75, I bought the Z cam new for $115. Both work great. Even the F4TE truck cam works great with 1.7 rockers. In fact, it's the best cam I've ever run with a carb, even though it was never intended as a carb cam.

I have used the E and F cams and was disappointed in both. They sound nice, but thats about it. You're right, they can't be beat for the price, but that ain't saying much. The TFS cams are the cheapest, same applies to them. My next cam purchase will be custom. Whats next? You gonna tell me the E-brock performer cams are the hottest on the market?

67Dylan · Feb 22, 2007

D.Hearne said:
... the X and Z have only .010 difference in lift at the valve, that seems insignifigant as far as spring bind would be concerned. You could also get close in specs to the "Z" with the "F" cam used with 1.7 rockers, just .010 less lift & 2* less duration. It also says the "Z" needs 120 lbs seat pressure & 340 lbs open...

Remember you're only looking at lift at one point. This can't and doesn't show the difference between the cams. In fact, the LSA's are much different between the F, X, B, & Z so they will react MUCH different in the same motor.
Adding the 1.7 rockers to a F will get you more lift, a little more duration, but the LSA is still off compared to the Z, so it's not really close IMO. 'My opinion' is based on changing from an F to a Z in a 342 I had; backed w/dyno #'s.
In the same car I changed from a Cobra EFI intake to a Holley SystemMax II and the car REALLY woke up. Went low 12's @ 112mph. Once I changed to an EdC custom... EASILY went 11's @ 117mph.
Maybe some ppl don't think custom is the way to go, but I'd disagree. The cam is the heart of the motor and to throw a 15yr old soft cam grind is a waste. A few years back a guy in TX had a 93 cobra stock except or a pair of AFR 165's, gears, exhaust, intake filter, and an EdC cam... car went mid 11's & idled like stock. Show me an off the shelf cam that will do that?!

Outlaw, it's your car and your money, but if you want to get the most out of the combo go custom. You have the specs for the motor, all you need is car weight, tranny, gears, and goals. Yeah, they cost 350$, but speed costs...

bnickel · Feb 22, 2007

i'd love to have a custom cam but the simple fact is that they are expensive and not as easy to get. you can order just about any off the shelf cam you want from Summit and have it in a couple of days. i can drive across town to Scoggin Dickey Parts Center and walk out with a nice cam for my car. when was the last time you found a custom grind cam on ebay that was right for your application?

the simple fact is that most people would rather just buy an off the shelf cam rather than go through ordering a custom grind.

outlaw66 · Feb 22, 2007

67...the custom gring option sounds intriging, but i won't / don't know what i need. i do have all the other info you indicated but don't know where to go either. sounds like you were real happy with the custom grind. did you provide the specs?the Z cam seems the easy route to go and certainly adequate for my needs. i would like to check in on a custom grind if the person can help with choice and i don't have to change everything else...springs, pistons, pushrods, etc. i would like to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 375HP or even more but not with massive parts changes. i like the fact that D. is familiar with the camshaft and I certainly value his opinion. I would like to at least check on a custom grind just to see what options are available, but I would have to place a lot of trust in the grinder with respect to duration/lift and clearance issues in my engine. give me a name/address and i'll make the call, but for now, i'm leaning toward the z cam based on a known source of satisfaction. I'm in OKC until next thursday so i can't start on the new engine till friday march 1 anyway, so i have a little time before i need to order a camshaft. i appreciate all the input....

outlaw

jspagna1 · Feb 22, 2007

Man, this is getting long. My 2 cents. My story is familiar to yours. Bought a Ford Racing GT-40 motor, drove it for about a year and wanted more. I was going to by aftermarket heads & change the B-cam. I called & spoke to the tech guys at Mustangs Unlimited. I told the guy I was going with TFS TW aluminum heads and asked him what cam to go with. He said change the heads, but keep the cam and go with 1.7 RR's and I would be E-cam territory. Took his advise and was happy, a lot more torque. That was about 8 years ago. Now may be adding a Supercharger. You will be fine with whatever you do. Never enough power!

outlaw66 · Feb 22, 2007

jspagna1..heck of a story....and you're right , never enough HP. can' wait to get back home and get started on this. i assume the TFS TW heads went to the larger valves...no interference issues with pistons i suppose since you didn't mention it.
thanks again guys

outlaw

67Dylan · Feb 22, 2007

outlaw66 said:
67...the custom gring option sounds intriging, but i won't / don't know what i need. i do have all the other info you indicated but don't know where to go either. sounds like you were real happy with the custom grind. did you provide the specs?the Z cam seems the easy route to go and certainly adequate for my needs. i would like to check in on a custom grind if the person can help with choice and i don't have to change everything else...springs, pistons, pushrods, etc. i would like to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 375HP or even more but not with massive parts changes. i like the fact that D. is familiar with the camshaft and I certainly value his opinion. I would like to at least check on a custom grind just to see what options are available, but I would have to place a lot of trust in the grinder with respect to duration/lift and clearance issues in my engine. give me a name/address and i'll make the call, but for now, i'm leaning toward the z cam based on a known source of satisfaction. I'm in OKC until next thursday so i can't start on the new engine till friday march 1 anyway, so i have a little time before i need to order a camshaft. i appreciate all the input....

outlaw

Here is the info for Ed Curtis: http://www.flowtechinduction.com/ Since it is a crate motor he might have info on it, if not I'm sure it easily accessible. Ed is a great guy to deal w/.

The Z cam is not bad, but as I stated, a very old grind. I also agree w/you D. has a lot of knowledge & I value his opinion as well. I disagree w/him regarding custom cams tho and the potential they open up. No big deal, different views on the same subject.

Good luck w/your choice. I'm sure either way you'll be happy... after all it's a Ford!

D.Hearne · Feb 22, 2007

67Dylan said:
Maybe some ppl don't think custom is the way to go, but I'd disagree. The cam is the heart of the motor and to throw a 15yr old soft cam grind is a waste. A few years back a guy in TX had a 93 cobra stock except or a pair of AFR 165's, gears, exhaust, intake filter, and an EdC cam... car went mid 11's & idled like stock. Show me an off the shelf cam that will do that?!
...

There's only so much you can do with any cam grind. You don't think Ford did their Homework when they designed these cams? And yea, the "Z" idles almost like a stocker. Mine was fine idling at 700 rpms. Street manners were superb, enough so I was driving it on a 50 mile commute everyday.The powerband stretched from 1500 to 7000 rpms. There's really nothing magic in a custom cam. From all the comments about them I hear, it's more of a "trendy" thing in buying one. All the comments about them are the same. And all the guys who've bought into them say the same tired old things about off the shelf grinds. If you're looking to squeeze every last ounce of power from an engine and are willing to spend whatever that costs to get it, go for it. I'll stick with the stuff that people discard in their hunt for power and then dump for pennies on the dollar (with out even trying these parts first ) in their quest.

D.Hearne · Feb 23, 2007

302 coupe said:
I have used the E and F cams and was disappointed in both. They sound nice, but thats about it. You're right, they can't be beat for the price, but that ain't saying much. The TFS cams are the cheapest, same applies to them. My next cam purchase will be custom. Whats next? You gonna tell me the E-brock performer cams are the hottest on the market?

Why weren't you happy with them? Maybe you're just one of those guys who're never quite satisfied with the outcome. Have you also used the TFS cams too? As for the Edelbrock grinds, I've never used one. I have used an "elcheapo" Summit brand cam(P/N 5200) in a stock 400M and was very surprised by that one. It really woke up the 400.

67Dylan · Feb 23, 2007

D.Hearne said:
There's only so much you can do with any cam grind. You don't think Ford did their Homework when they designed these cams? And yea, the "Z" idles almost like a stocker. Mine was fine idling at 700 rpms. Street manners were superb, enough so I was driving it on a 50 mile commute everyday.The powerband stretched from 1500 to 7000 rpms. There's really nothing magic in a custom cam. From all the comments about them I hear, it's more of a "trendy" thing in buying one. All the comments about them are the same. And all the guys who've bought into them say the same tired old things about off the shelf grinds. If you're looking to squeeze every last ounce of power from an engine and are willing to spend whatever that costs to get it, go for it. I'll stick with the stuff that people discard in their hunt for power and then dump for pennies on the dollar (with out even trying these parts first ) in their quest.

So you're basing your opinion on what you 'hear' and not what you've tried? Doesn't sound like your opinion holds much water, not being disrespectful, but what you are stating is an OPINION w/nothing fact based. True?

The reason they say the same thing about an off the shelf cam is cause it's true; a cam's seat timing events, ramp rate, and lift (which are directly related to the intake and exhaust flow capabilities), crankshaft geometry, static compression, & rpm range are VERY important to selecting the proper cam. You really shouldn't knock something until you try it or learn more about cams and what a cam ground for a specific combo can do.

A custom is only 350$, which IMO, isn't much to pay if you want to squeeze the most out of the combo. As the saying goes, speed costs, how fast do you want to go? If you want to get ppls leftovers that is your business, but IMO you shouldn't knock something you haven't tried yourself. I have tried the Z, as I stated, and upgrading to the custom gave me huge amounts of gain, backed by ET's not a butt o'meter.

D.Hearne · Feb 23, 2007

I don't need to spend $250 extra to find out I've only gained 10 hp. Or knocked a tenth off the E.T.'s. As I posted already, the "Z" had a powerband that stretched 5000+ rpms in my 331, that in itself speaks volumes about it. You claim all this research is done by custom grinders, but you seem to ignore the fact that the bigger cam companies and Ford have also done the same thing. If you don't think they haven't, read Ford's 5.0 book and you'll find that they did extensive research in the factory roller cams, these aren't the only engines that had this done to either. You think a small cam grinder's going to build an engine to test the outcome of "your" cam grind? Or just run it thru a computer program? Either way it's a risk that costs money that I'd rather spend elsewhere. And I suspect the success rate with one is not 100% either.

67Dylan · Feb 24, 2007

I know Ford and other cam mans did their homework when designing their grinds; you're pointing out the obvious to an old school'r. You also have to realize they completed their research to encompass as many 'combo's' as possible; not to OPTIMIZE a certain combo (except for the Ford combo which is optimized to run w/the Ford parts). A custom grind does exactly what it is suppose to. If you think, which is all you're doing since you haven't even ran one, the gain is only 10hp then you need to open your eyes. Do you know what power under the curve is? I didn't dyno much more HP, but the power under the curve was increased which lead my decrease in ET & increase in MPH.
By the way you are talking your 331 ran mid 11's? Cause that Cobra I pointed out ran mid 11's w/LESS cubes (302CID). Either way your internet research is lacking IMO, cause your argument doesn't follow the facts. You can have the last word cause this is going now place real quick. I can't compete w/the butt o'meter and antquated cams.

D.Hearne · Feb 24, 2007

Yea, I do know what power under the curve is, but the power curve on the Z in the 331 starts at 1500 and ends somewhere around 6500-7000. So it's obvious to me, I don't need to spend $250 extra to extend it. You go ahead with the custom, I'm completely satisfied with the results I've got. I'm no expert in drag racing, but the 331 pushed the 89 Ranger to mid 13's with a curb weight of 3800 lbs, mid 2 second 60' times (No traction), thru the exhaust, street tires and on pump gas, all with the aerodynamics of a brick. It also gets 16 mpg without overdrive running 70 mph, it may not impress you, but I'm happy with it .

67Dylan · Feb 25, 2007

D.Hearne said:
Yea, I do know what power under the curve is, but the power curve on the Z in the 331 starts at 1500 and ends somewhere around 6500-7000. So it's obvious to me, I don't need to spend $250 extra to extend it. You go ahead with the custom, I'm completely satisfied with the results I've got. I'm no expert in drag racing, but the 331 pushed the 89 Ranger to mid 13's with a curb weight of 3800 lbs, mid 2 second 60' times (No traction), thru the exhaust, street tires and on pump gas, all with the aerodynamics of a brick. It also gets 16 mpg without overdrive running 70 mph, it may not impress you, but I'm happy with it .

What kind of MPH were you seeing?

Max Power · Feb 25, 2007

Old school?

I got a 3/4 race cam and pop up pistons.

Whattya think of THAT?!?

D.Hearne · Feb 25, 2007

67Dylan said:
What kind of MPH were you seeing?

Trap speed was 102-104. Toploader 4 speed, Hurst Comp Plus shifter, never tried speed shifting it though like I used to with my old 67 big block Stang. I never really tried to go balls to the wall, I hate breaking parts if I don't need to. . Shifted out at 6500 rpms. My kid I later learned was pushing it to 7500. The fastest I ever ran the truck was 140, that was about it on topend, like the 06 GT Stang------That's fast enough............I don't feel as bullit proof as I was twenty years ago.

67Dylan · Feb 26, 2007

Max Power said:
Old school?

I got a 3/4 race cam and pop up pistons.

Whattya think of THAT?!?

I think your in grandfather territory

D.Hearne · Feb 26, 2007

That's ne thing I never have been able to find out, just where that term came from and what cam qualified as a 3/4 race cam? Did the 3/4 refer to the total lift? Or the duration? 3/4 the way of 360 degrees is 270 degrees. Pretty mild now. even back in the day it was as well. The cam I had in the 427 was a Holman-Moody grind with a 310 degree duration.

Head Change on new Ford 345HP crate engine

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