Help me pick out an engine for my '65

[Ferf]

I will be looking to purchase an engine for my '65 coupe in the very near future. I would like all suggestions and comments from anyone and everyone. My price range is $5,000 - $7000 for a turn-key solution.

I know that someone will bring up suspension upgrades, brakes, structure issues, etc. Therefore here is a run down of what has been or will be done to the car.

- New engine compartment, torque boxes, frame rails, floor boards, and trunk. Everything has been welded VERY, VERY well. TCP subframes will also be installed.

- All new suspension with Poly bushings from Mustangs Plus. This includes 620 springs and 4 1/2 leafs.

- Monte carlo bar, export brace and Shelby traction bars.

- 9" rearend from Currie Enterprises with 3.73s, Wilwood disc brakes, and a Detroit Tru-Trac.

- Wilwood disc brakes up front.

- Tremec TKO II tranny

I am pretty certain I will be going with some form of a 351w. However, let me hear your suggestions and companies to buy from.

thanks,

Chris

 

[1320stang]

How about just opening your Motorsport catalog and getting either the 385hp 351 or the 430hp 392 from Ford (actually, the Chevrolet Dealer in Texas, Scoggin Dickey is a Motorsports dealer and has better pricing than about anywhere I've seen.) The motorsports catalog lists them at $5495 and $6295 respecfully and you're looking at all brand new parts.

 

[Ferf]

Granted, someone has a horror story about one place or another, but I have read some bad things about engines from Ford Motorsports. Also for that price, isn't there "better" value out there from places such as CHP?

I have also been looking into Badass Engines. If anyone has some experience or comments on them, let me know.

thanks,

Chris

 

[dodgestang]

You could join club impossible and drop a 351c in and stroke it out to 408 or 427 cubes....that's a big budget for a motor and its easy to spend it fast and end up with less ponies per dollar than another solution might have netted you.

The first question is do you want to build or buy with the difference being building means you work with a machine shop and get something built to the specs and power levels you want and buy means you pull up a website, click on a crate motor and add it to your shopping cart.

I am definetly in the build category on this one. Crate motors are a cheap and often easy solution, but if you are really prepared to spend 5-7k for the motor you are going to get a lot more bang finding a good local machine shop and working with them to put together a motor with top notch parts, not the cheapest you can find to meet a price point (aka crate motor).

You can start off with a nice 351w block, get a scat stroker crank, pistons for 10.5:1 for NA set or 9/9.5:1 for a possible blower assembly later on...add to that some real nice Twisted wedge heads and a good intake and you are good to go...call up Flowtech Inductions and get a custom cam to meet your power goals and you got a done motor.

 

[1320stang]

But Nick, aren't you talking well above $7000 with that setup?

Ferf, I have yet to hear a bad thing about a Motorsports motor, so you've got me there. But I also tend to ignore things I hear unless they're from a very reliable source.

It's all in the details, someone may buy a 385hp motor and put their cast iron manifolds and their 4100 and dyno it on a chassis dyno and find it comes nowhere close to the advertised flywheel 385 with a 750 and long tubes, but these are the same numbnutz that go straight to the web boards b!xching and moaning about they got screwed. Not saying that's alway the senario, but I have personally seen something similar to that happen.

I believe geegee has the 345hp Motorsports motor in his '66 fastback and I haven't hear of any complaints from him.

 

[Ferf]

I really don't know jack about engines. I have a pretty good idea of how they work. However, deciding which carb size is the best, compression ratios, etc. is all over my head. I also don't know of any good shops in the area, but then again, I have never looked into it.

I just don't want to go to a local shop drop a nice chunk of change and get taken because I don't know what the hell I am talking about.

later,

Chris

 

[66P51GT]

How about running forged (optional stroked) 302 small block and supercharging? Mileage a daily drivability with the power of a big block. Might be hard pressed to do it for under $7k but it is another option.

 

[eric n]

I don't have one, though for what I spent through an local builder I could have with change left over, but I personally would go for a chp stroker. Never heard a bad word about them. Seem to be quality all the way around.

An inportant question is, what do you plan on doing with the car, just cruise? 1/4 mile? Road Race? What is your goal? Weight up front may be a consideration. Do you really need/want more than 350 rwhp? If not you may just consider a 347, light, strong, reasonably powerful. Or if you want to go all the way, get crazy with a 408/427 (351 dirivative). But that's a lot of ponies for a street car. Here is the thing, you have the budget to do it well, so figure out your goals and call a reputable builder and have it done to your needs & wants.

 

[Ferf]

How about running forged (optional stroked) 302 small block and supercharging?

Correct me if I am wrong, but why spend all that money on a stroked/supercharged 302, when I can spend the same amount of money or a bit less on a n/a 351w that is a lot stronger?

As for a heavier front end with a 351, everything I read states that if you use aluminium heads and intake, it is about the same weight as a 289/302.

My purpose for the car...let's just say a little bit of everything. I am not looking for a car to dominate in one specific area. I will hit the strip up once or twice just to see what the car can do. Therefore, not a top priority. I would have went with some higher gears like 4.11s or higher if that was the case. However, I definitly want to hold my own on the street from light to light.

I love hitting up country roads. Nothing beats coming in and out of turns on an empty country road. However, I also want the ability to be doing 80 mph on the highway, punch it, and be at 110 in a blink of an eye.

later,

Chris

 

[dodgestang]

But Nick, aren't you talking well above $7000 with that setup?

Lemme see here,,,,,
150 for the block
1200 into the heads
2000 for the kit
500 in Machine shop labor
550 for a complete MSD igition setup
400 for headers
160 for mini starter
80 for the water pump
500 for the custom cam and springs and retainers
80 for the windage tray and bolts
215 for the pan
240 for the intake
370 for the carb
180 for the pulleys
530 for the radiator
180 for the e-fan
100 for the right mounts
35 for the oil pump

I think that's everything that would go into a turn key motor....lemme know if I left anything out...you could add $300 for the dyno test and tune that showed 393 RWHP through the AOD and 9 inch.

hmmm....well it is a little over 7k...with a grand total of 7.5k....off course if you shop around a little I am sure you could get the prices lower...I just bought everything new from Jegs or summit; plus I know I double counted the cam (I used 2) so you can loose another $150 or so cause I bought a cam with the original kit.

 

[1320stang]

Well, obviously you're not talking about a $150 Dart block, and when you said real nice TW heads, I took that to mean with a higher stage of CNC porting, you're not gonna get that for $1200. But all that is besides the point, he said he wanted a turnkey engine and based on his statement of really not knowing jack about engines, I'm doubting he's built one before and it doesn't sound like he wants to build this one. Hey, I'm all for building you're own engines, but if you haven't done one before, I think just rebuilding a stock one is a better way to start.

Keith Craft has a real nice stroker you can get in a 331 or 347 for $6295 450hp/425trq (I'm guessing that's for the 347, but I don't know for sure). Here's the specs:

Fully machined production block, New Scat 4340 forged crank, New Scat 4340 H beam rods, SRP forged pistons, Plasma moly rings, Federal Mogul bearings, Hyd. Roller camshaft, Hyd roller lifters, AFR 185 heads or cnc'd Brodix 5.0Heads, Scorpion roller rockers,ARP head bolts, Fel Pro gaskets, Edelbrock Victor Jr. intake, Canton 7gt oil pan, Ford Racing damper and spacer, 28 oz balanced, blueprinted and assembled.

I personally know several people that have gotten SBF, FE, and BBF from Craft and not one has been disappointed. Craft is in Arkansas, ferf, you didn't mention where you live either, maybe this is a bit closer to you?

He's also got a 408/410 (cast crank) that makes 500/500 for $5595 and a 408/410 (forged crank) that makes 575/550 for $7295 which is about $300 over you're max, but if you can come up with $7k, I'd bet you could find $300 pretty easy.

 

[UNVMATT]

DSS RACING HAS SOME DARN GOOD ENGINES!

DSSRACING.COM

 

[jesserose17]

Check out Bad Ass Engines!

http://www.badasscars.com/engines.html

 

[87gn2]

Go with the 351W stroker like you originally planned. The only reason to stay with a 302 block is to save about 50 pounds. If you're more into corner carving like me then you'd do better with the 331/347. If you just want a hot street car that'll still handle well then go with the 351W stroker.

But you could probably build a 393 or 408 with the Paxton supercharger kit and still keep it under 5 grand. With a TKO II and a Currie 9" you wouldn't have many problems.

 

[dodgestang]

Well, obviously you're not talking about a $150 Dart

I have a cleveland in my car..they don't make too much of that stuff for me

You are right though....my fingers got ahead of myself when I typed Dart..I meant just a nice 351w block and TW heads...

So lets revisit the total if you chose to build a comporable 351w:

150 Block (standard 351w)
2100 bare heads
1500 Stroker Kit (with rotating assembly balances, upgraded bearings, 4 bolt balancer, yadda yadda yadda)
500 in Machine shop labor
550 for a complete MSD igition setup
200 for headers
160 for mini starter
80 for the water pump
500 for the custom cam and springs and retainers
80 for the windage tray and bolts
180 for the pan
240 for the intake
370 for the carb
180 for the pulleys
530 for the radiator
180 for the e-fan
100 for the right mounts
35 for the oil pump

Ohh yeah then you need to buy valves and studs and I don't know how much they would run


Hey look at that...I just proved its cheaper to build a 351c if you don't have anything to start with

 

[1320stang]

What problems did you experience putting a 351c in an early body?

 

[dodgestang]

What problems did you experience putting a 351c in an early body?

None.

Its a tight fit I will give it that, aside from bumping the header tubes in a couple little spots to keep them off the shock towers it fits right in. Does not rub the shock towers, did not need to cut or sledge the tower. The trick is using the correct motor mounts...the 3 peice 64 falcon (early 65 mustang) mounts hold the motor at a slightly different place then the 2 peice jobs. Only limits are low rise intake if you want run a stock hood like I do....use an excelerator intake, 1/2 carb spacer, drop base cleaner and 3 inch filter.

I learned the secret to putting it in from Opentracker who runs his 65 coupe on the twiste road courses with a 351c.

Changing plugs take a little getting used to, but I pull them out ok without needing to pull the motor either

 

[Hack]

None.

Its a tight fit I will give it that, aside from bumping the header tubes in a couple little spots to keep them off the shock towers it fits right in. Does not rub the shock towers, did not need to cut or sledge the tower. The trick is using the correct motor mounts...the 3 peice 64 falcon (early 65 mustang) mounts hold the motor at a slightly different place then the 2 peice jobs. Only limits are low rise intake if you want run a stock hood like I do....use an excelerator intake, 1/2 carb spacer, drop base cleaner and 3 inch filter.

I learned the secret to putting it in from Opentracker who runs his 65 coupe on the twiste road courses with a 351c.

Changing plugs take a little getting used to, but I pull them out ok without needing to pull the motor either

Hey Nick,
I love your car and I think you have great taste. I wonder about the oil pan though. Pretty close to the ground, isn't it? Do you worry about smashing it? Or does it just look close to the ground?
Sorry, a bit OT there.

 

[Ferf]

UNVMATT & jesserose17,

Have either of you guys purchased from DSS or Badass?

thanks,

Chris

 

[1320stang]

The trick is using the correct motor mounts...the 3 peice 64 falcon (early 65 mustang) mounts hold the motor at a slightly different place then the 2 peice jobs.

You're talking about the cast mounts right? You know those are weaker than the steel mount right? I swapped mounts with Realmongo as he needed the early mounts for his 260 powered '64 1/2" and I wanted the later mounts simply because they're easier to stab the motor.