Help me set up and decide on my 347 combo

[Grn92LX]

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First i'll start off with my goals and intended usage of the car, then i'll get into what I plan on using.

I want to do a 10.5-10.8:1 compression 347 that makes around 400rwhp/400+tq and won't have to be shifted past 6200 rpm. I want a killer torque monster as well. I've seen mild (sub 400rwhp) 347's doing like 350ft-lbs by 2400rpm and thats what I want! This is NOT a race car and probably won't see the track because our local track got shut down. Its just gonna be a fast weekend cruiser that I could pick the girlfriend up in and go to the movies or just play around on the street and have fun, NOT a track only car that see's high rpm. I will be having Erik K from horsepower engineering do the shortblock!

Now on to the parts I plan on using. This will be a stock block. I'll be using an eagle rotating assembly. Cast steel crank, I beam rods and JE forged pistons for trickflow TW heads. I will be using a set of trickflow TW heads that are milled to 57.6cc and have good valve springs in them that I got from ed curtis. I plan on using a TFS R intake with a 75mm TB, 80mm mass air and 30lb injectors. I have 1 5/8" longtubes now, but will upgrade to 1 3/4". I haven't decided on the cam. It will be a custom from either jay allen or ed or possibly an AFM cam if it can get me my goals. Most likely a jay allen cam. Money is an issue so I can't afford the "best of everything". I dont want to port my heads, thats too much money and I can't swing that. I might check into a local shop though to get port work prices just to see. I'll also be using a 28oz romac and a 28oz ford flywheel. I have to check with Erik on the compression with those JE pistons.

What do you guys think about my planned combination? Im sure you all have idea's on how to make more power, but keep in mind this is JUST a pump gas street car that gets driven on weekends and isnt raced unless a friend wants to play.

Mike

 

[dkhl]

Here's just some quick advice...

Forged goodies are really beneficial for high compression stroker motors, I'm assuming you don't need force induction so your setup looks pretty decent. I've heard good things about Trick Flow, but I like AFR better. You seem to have the majority of that down, just keep in mind that if you want a face street car, you'll pay for it in gas mileage [which will drop significantly as you see the 400hp range]. I'd rethink doing a stroker motor, it's a lot of time and effort to put in just to realize your car gets 10mpg lol.

If I were to do it, I'd get a new shortblock [likely from dss] that's built for punishment, a custom FTI camshaft, AFR 205 heads, Edelbrock RPM Performer II intake, forged internals (crank, pistons, rods). You'll want bigger injectors than 30#, 42 is good I hear. It's really up to you how you want to go about it, but you've seem to be intelligent enough to choose decently.

 

[SlowGT]

Sounds like fun. The R series intake is a little much for your intentions. Check out the numbers at Trick Flow. I'd think maybe the Track Heat would be more suitable for this application. Smaller cross section means higher port velocity. The longer runners on the Street Heat would be an even better for your torque quest. They only give it 'idle-5500', but it would be your best choice from the Trick Flow family.

I'd use an 80mm MAF meter and a 75mm TB. The TFS intakes are machined for 75, so anything larger won't provide any significant improvement.

30# injectors will carry 400hp, but you could go to 36's just to be on the conservative side. Do the math and prove to yourself what size injectors you'll need. OR search out one of the many fuel injector calculators on the internet.

I'm with dkhl on the heads. I'd much rather have a set of AFRs. 185's would be plenty for a ~400hp+ N/A motor. Check out this FLOW DATA. Scroll down til you get to the Windsor tables. Compare the flow/HP capabilities of the 185's VS the Twisted Wedge. He has a lot more good info on his homepage.

I'm a big fan of forged goodies, too. However, your stock crank and rods will easily support 400+ HP.

Why 28oz imbalance instead of the standard 50oz? Have you given any thought to zero balance?

400hp/tq from 347 inches is not very hard to achieve. You should have no trouble building a reliable setup in that range. Remember to consider your gear ratio, trans gear ratios, tire height and desired RPM range when you're working up a cam.

After you've done all your research, if you still decide to go with the Twisted Wedge heads, I've got a set here with around 1200 miles on them. I've been wanting to list them on eBay, but I've just been too lazy. Let me know if you're interested. I'm only 2hrs from the G-W bridge, so we could meet up somewhere and save the shipping .


EDIT: Just realized you've already got your heads. Anybody else looking for a set???



.

 

[90mustangGT]

I think he's planning on re-using some of the parts he already has. On a budget, I'm sure he's like a Dart block, all forged internals, AFR 205's ect, but as is I think he alread has a pretty good plan going on. I'm no expert by any means but from what I do know, it sounds good.

SlowGT: Who makes a 3.4" crank in 50oz inbalance? I'd like to build a stoker too but the extra cost of the balancer and flywheel hold it down.

 

[N8Miller]

greenlx, i am not clear on what your asking here. your a smart guy who already knows what he wants/can afford. you have a very knowledgable background of 5.0s from talking to you on IM a few times.

now, for my opinions.

I would go with the Track heat too or the R if the cam is set up for it. The R will provide higher RPM power (to like 7500 if i remember correctly) and the Track heat starts at lower rpms than the R.

You should have no problem with your tfs heads. If you have an extra $200, take them to a machine shop and just have them clean up the "rough spots" or the valve areas a bit. AFRs would be nice, but until you sell your TFS heads (prolly like $700ish) and then get afr heads with a spring upgrade ($1400), it would be better to keep your money and invest in better internals.
on the topic of internals though, it doesnt make too much sense to throw a ton at it when most scat stuff with forged pistons will take as much HP as the block anyhow.

as for cam, you sound on a custom one already.... good choice.

slowgt: sent you an email, did you get it?

 

[ninjacoupe]

Check my sig. All in under 6000. 25mpg highway w/373's little less w/4.10's I have now but still over 20.

Never intended to be a race car. Spec'ed out to be a FUN tourque streetcar. over 300ftlbs from 2000rpm up.This moter does not care what rpm you stomp on it at.
The tw's will do the job fine as the #'s between the afr's and tw's are pretty insignificant.

I just realized where your from. I'm on Long Island also.

 

[dkhl]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but you sound like you need something to street race once in a while. While, it is deplorable, for the most part.. it doesn't stop most people from flooring it once in a while. I'm 100% certain NO one on this forum has not broken the law a few times with their mustangs, NO ONE.

IF that's the case, your setup would be good enough for the most part.. you'd probably want to shoot for 350RWHP and 350RWTQ. That will for the most part school just about EVERY riced out import, a good portion of souped up domestics yet still mild enough for everyday street use. Your camshaft is a pretty important pick, choose something that isn't too extreme. You can also change your gears to 3.73's which will definitely give you a kick on the street.

347 produces tons of torque at low rpms, which will come in handy. Whoever said torque is nothing is smokin something real good. At least for me, a lot of my friends have imports, and think their integras can hold a candle to a v8. You'll more than likely take a lot of people off the line cause of the 5.0's great ability to have so much twisting force down low.

Anyways..

 

[Thomas302]

Since I asked about my GT-40 intake on my 331 awhile back, and you told me to get the R, I have done a lot of research and I found that is not to much intake for a stroker motor. Everyone sees that it is a short runner intake good to 7200rpm and thinks it to much, but on a stroker, its only good to 6500rpm, and it really only makes power to about 6250. Im sure you have probably read this, but check out the test they did on a 302, it was in MM&FF 5 will get you 4, it is pretty intresting . They used a AFR 185's, 70mm tb, 24lb and XE284 cam, and made 432fwhp@6000 and 381fwtq@5400, it made over 300fwtq from 3000rpm on, but said they should have used a 75mm tb, well I will let you read it. Trickflow also did a 347 dyno with the R intake, TW heads, stage II cam(i think), 70mm tb, and 24lb, It made 403fwhp@5700 and 395fwtq@4500. There are some more articles I found, but I will have to find them again and get back to you. I still don't know why people use 1 3/4 lt's over 1 5/8 lt's, but I am still researching that. As for the injectors, it looks like 30lb will be plenty on a N/A347 from what I have read. I will also let you know how the R intake, 75mm tb and 30lb's work my 331 in a week or two when I get them on. Hope this helps.

Edit: Here are the articles, the comp cams link is the 302 and the trick flow link is the 347

http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=840261088
http://www.trickflow.com/articles/featured_index.htm

 

[Grn92LX]

Thanks for the opinions guys. I wasn't asking if the R intake would be too big, I guess I could have been more specific. When you put that intake on a stroker, its power rating drops. I would never use a track heat intake on the combo I planned, thats incredibly small for my goals. I dont want to end up with some weak ass 350rwhp combo. I am a trickflow person, thats what I like to use. I dont want afr 185's. 90MustangGT was right, I am on somewhat of a budget and I want to reuse some parts I already have like the heads, 75mm tb, 80mm mass air and 30lb injectors.

Putting 4340 forged rods and crank in a stock block combo is a waste AND adds weight to the rotating assembly thus, slowing me down and killing my wallet.

If I were to do it, I'd get a new shortblock [likely from dss] that's built for punishment, a custom FTI camshaft, AFR 205 heads, Edelbrock RPM Performer II intake, forged internals (crank, pistons, rods). You'll want bigger injectors than 30#, 42 is good I hear. It's really up to you how you want to go about it, but you've seem to be intelligent enough to choose decently

Thats a nice combo if I wanted to go 10.50's on motor and shift at 7000 but thats not my goal. You would actually want a victor 5.0 intake on that engine, not a too small rpm2. I'll take a shortblock built by erik at horsepowerengineering over any mass produced dss assembly line engine any day!

Thanks for those links, Thomas! On a bigger inch stroker, you would want the 1 3/4" longtubes. I will be using those as well unless my cam grinder says I dont need them. Let me know how your set up works out! What heads and cam are you using? I don't remember recommending the R intake for you, but if I did, thanks for taking my advice even though on this site my advice is usually against the grain

 

[Thomas302]

I am using the AFR 185's and an XE274, 24lb, 70mm tb, and 1 5/8 lt on my 331. I asked awhile back it my GT-40 was holding me back. I was just trying to give you some combo ideas from different articles. The trick flow dyno test is a bit low I think, but I bet with a cam with closer specs to the XE284 would make a lot more power. It sounds like you already have a good idea of what you want and dont really need any help. Let us know how what ever you choose works out.

 

[SlowGT]

If you're going to use an R intake, you should seriously consider at least port matching the intake side of your heads. Untouched TW intake ports aren't even close to an R port.

 

[bln92cpe]

I love whats in my sig, almost 500 HP

 

[Grn92LX]

If you're going to use an R intake, you should seriously consider at least port matching the intake side of your heads. Untouched TW intake ports aren't even close to an R port.

It says on trickflows site under the R intake specs 'port size at head 2 x 1.2" and then port size at mating flange 2.38 in. x 1.38 in.. What the hell do they mean by mating flange?? Do they mean the lower intake ports are 2 x 1.2" or what? If so, thats a perfect match to the TW head. Im confused.

I'd have to have them port matched like you said if they dont match. I guess thats about a 1262 gasket, right? I think thats cheap to do, i'll have the shop around the block do it. They gasket matched my heads to a 1250 and that was $80. I would have them port match it to the R intake which should be basically the same thing as gasket matching I guess.

 

[houstonstangguy]

personally I agree that you will need to do a little something in way of porting your heads to better match that intake. plus when I was looking into that intake, I found that the systemax II or RPM II better matched my unported trick flows, but I was also told that that power band and the one for the Victor 5.0 would only come down about 500rpms not 1000 with a stroker. 400/400 won't be hard to do if you do a good custom cam (i am going with ed). hell I am making 353/391 on unported heads and a small ass cobra intake/65mm tb. It is gonna be in your cam and intake that either get you over that hump or hold you back. all depends on your budget. at the end of my build up I had to cut back from a custom cam and better intake/tb to the intake/tb that I had and a stage 3 cam....not too bad but the budget dictated it, not my wish list.

 

[SlowGT]

It says on trickflows site under the R intake specs 'port size at head 2 x 1.2" and then port size at mating flange 2.38 in. x 1.38 in.. What the hell do they mean by mating flange?? Do they mean the lower intake ports are 2 x 1.2" ore what? If so, thats a perfect match to the TW head. Im confused.

Maybe I'm confused a little, too. Here's what I know:

I've got a cobra lower that's portmatched to a FelPro-1250 intake gasket, which is 1.2 x 2.0. When the gasket's placed on the untouched TW heads I have here, there's a lot more aluminum showing than I like to see. As much as 1/8" in places. That's a hell of a lot of shelf to be pushing air around, IMO.

I haven't seen many Trick Flow lowers, but the 351-R lower I have here for my 408 has nicely cut, uniform ports. Not like the unsquared ports on the TW heads. If you're not in a hurry, I could probably measure the R intake ports in the next couple of days and let you know. And if I've got an old 1250 around somewhere, I could get you a picture of the mismatch on the heads if you want. Or just get a 1250 at Autozone and see what it looks like. You're going to need them eventually anyway.

 

[runningmole]

Looks stout to me. Should be a beast

 

[Grn92LX]

Thanks, SlowGT. No, i'm not in a hurry. When I placed a 1250 to my TW heads, it wasnt a perfect match, but I dont remember it being an 1/8" of an inch off. Ed C told me gasket matching is a waste, but port matching is different. Let me know how that R lower matches a 1250, i'd greatly appriciate it! Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I am going to make a list of parts I need and add everything up and see what its gonna cost and what I can afford to do. man, I can't wait to see this figure

 

[Thomas302]

Here is my R intake with a 1250 gasket. Its a very close match.

 

[SlowGT]

Very nice. That's a much closer match than the 1250 on my TW heads.

 

[Thomas302]

The 1250 matches really good on the top and bottom and the corner radius is really close, but the sides of the gasket hang over just a bit, thats why I ordered a 1262 gasket. If you want, I will post pics of that gasket when it gets here.