Help w/ harmonic balancer

SetofAces · May 18, 2009

I'm trying to get my harmonic balancer back on, already broke the tool that I rented after trying to drive it on with the bolt . . . very frustrated . . . wondering if it isn't already all the way on? Doesn't look like it, but I can't remember; the new seal that I put in the timing cover might not be set as deep as the other one, only way this could be possible I think.

I remember seeing a thread on here a while ago covering the exact same topic, but I couldn't find it . . . somebody help me, please . . .

SetofAces · May 18, 2009

Think it's in all the way??

50sleeper · May 18, 2009

No

You do have the key lined up with the keyway right?

That is definitely NOT on all the way.

skunk21 · May 18, 2009

I agree that is not on all the way. The only thing I can think of like already stated is the key isn't lined up or it's bound up with a metal shaving, they can be a tight fit. I marked the snout of the crank to orient the position of the keyway. pull it off and check to make sure there isn't any burs on the crankshaft or i.d of the damper, use some emery cloth to smooth it out. In case you didn't know this already but put some rtv down the keyway notch on the damper and on the back side of the washer for the damper bolt to seal it. when I did mine I got in on by hand has far has possible then laid a small block of wood across it and tapped it on with a hammer until it bottomed out.

S&B · May 18, 2009

i heated mine up with the torch and it slipped right on and bolted down, pressing it on is a PITA. dont heat it till its glowing just for a minute so the metal expands

SetofAces · May 19, 2009

greensvt21 said:
when I did mine I got in on by hand has far has possible then laid a small block of wood across it and tapped it on with a hammer until it bottomed out.

I've heard that can damage the damper so I've been reluctant to do that; as far as the RTV goes, I did apply some. I think I'll try heating it up, as the other person suggested.

Thanks guys

skunk21 · May 19, 2009

SetofAces said:
I've heard that can damage the damper so I've been reluctant to do that; as far as the RTV goes, I did apply some. I think I'll try heating it up, as the other person suggested.

Thanks guys

hmm used it from a right up on a search from either her or corral. The wood being soft will not damage the damper and allows it to go on more even + I didn't have to beat the hell out if it. I could see concern with hitting directly with the hammer w/o wood causing damage. I'm not going to say that S&B idea is bad either, but the rubber iso part of the damper is bonded to the metal and if you over heat it this could damage the bond or damage the rubber, this to me could cause the damper to fail. either way I hope it works out for you and you get it fixed

S&B · May 19, 2009

just heet the neck dont head up the etire unit with a toarch, the guy that builds my engines says that sometimes he has to put the whole unit in the oven at about 250 for an hour to get some on, if there being stubborn.

50sleeper · May 19, 2009

Why

I cant think of a good reason to mess with a hammer or a torch

Use the right tool for the job.

The harmonic balancer puller with enable to you to also "pull" the balancer onto the shaft also (again make 100% certain you have the key lined up with the keyway).

Just $20 at Sears for the good Craftsman one.

The force provided by the harmonic balancer puller is much greater than anything you can achieve with a hammer and heating a rubber lined balancer with a torch sounds like a bad plan to me.

I just replaced mine about a week ago with the black Ford Racing one as the rubber on my stock one was cracked in a few places.

Pulled right down on the shaft with the Craftsman tool.

Darkwriter77 · May 19, 2009

I dunno why y'all are having such issues getting those things back on. The past two times I've put a balancer on a 5.0, I just pushed it onto the crank by hand as far as I could, then sucked it down the rest of the way with the stock bolt and a washer. I think in one case I had to make a trip to the hardware store for a slightly longer bolt so that I had enough thread actually getting into the crank for a secure initial grip, but after I pulled it down so far, I removed that bolt and put the stock one back on and sucked it on down the rest of the way until it was fully seated.

Strype · May 19, 2009

If the puller doesn't work I vote to take the nose off the car and beat the living God given snot out of it with hammer and wood. That being said, GreyBeast and I have about the same temperment.

RickCoMatic · May 19, 2009

Tap the Key "Square"
Lube.
Follow the book. Lube the Inside Diameter of the Balancer ... The Outside Diameter of the end of the Crank.
"Shine" the Key with 800
Clean the Slot on the Balancer with 800 ... too.
Place a Block or a Metal Piece over the front so that you can apply IMPACT ant keep the Balancer Squared-up.
Lube.
Lube.

SetofAces · May 19, 2009

As far as using the right tool goes, been there, broke that.

After reading someone else's similar troubles (and finding out that they had the wrong sprocket) I decided to take some measurements, and it seemed that the balancer had somewhere around 1/8" further to go. I just took the timing cover back off to verify that I didn't have the wrong crank sprocket, and on a whim tried pushing the balancer on by hand w/ the timing cover off; lo and behold, it went on further than it had before, so I put the timing cover back up against the block for reference and held the timing pointer up on it and it indeed was about 1/8"-1/4" further in, which put it about where it should be (going off of the old wear marks from the crank seal.
Why this happened, I have no idea; the timing cover seemed to be all the way on of course and I torqued down all of the bolts. The only reasonable explanation that I can postulate for this offhand would be that the timing cover somehow got warped or bent during removal (I did pull on it a couple times a bit before realizing that I missed two of the bolts through the oil pan).
I'm going to go see how straight the timing cover is and try again; btw, the original gasket was only sealed with silicone to the block, and is still in half way decent shape, think I should re-use it? a small amount of it got stuck to the cover on the bottom where it meets the oil pan from the silicone that I put on it . . .

-Jon

SetofAces · May 19, 2009

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Of COURSE it couldn't be that easy; I didn't have the timing cover on all the way, so The balancer is indeed in no further than it was before. The crank sprocket appeared to be correct without taking it off (which of course my lazy ass didn't do); so I'll just have to take it off and see . . .

SetofAces · May 19, 2009

OK,

So I made a few quick measurements; swapped the new crank pully from the old one, put it on without the cam crank and chain, and distance to the end of the crankshaft was identical (as were the sprockets of course). distance from the oilpan to the balancer was the same with the balancer on all the way w/ the timing cover on and off.
So, the balancer is on as far as it will go, so this leaves only two explanations:

1) Someone broke into my garage and swapped my harmonic balancer for a longer one;
2) The crank seal isn't in as far as the older one; the older one had a different design w/ a flange, whereas the new one doesn't. This is the only explanation that makes any sense to me, and in fact was what I was thinking from the beginning!

To everyone that told me there was no way that the balancer was on all the way, what were you looking at? were you looking at the balancer shaft (which would make sense) and saw the old crank seal wear marks, or were you looking at the timing pointer?

SetofAces · May 19, 2009

OK,

So I made a few quick measurements; swapped the new crank pully from the old one, put it on without the cam crank and chain, and distance to the end of the crankshaft was identical (as were the sprockets of course). distance from the oilpan to the balancer was the same with the balancer on all the way w/ the timing cover on and off.
So, the balancer is on as far as it will go, so this leaves only two explanations:

1) Someone broke into my garage and swapped my harmonic balancer for a longer one;
2) The crank seal isn't in as far as the older one; the older one had a different design w/ a flange, whereas the new one doesn't. This is the only explanation that makes any sense to me, and in fact was what I was thinking from the beginning!

To everyone that told me there was no way that the balancer was on all the way, what were you looking at? were you looking at the balancer shaft (which would make sense) and saw the old crank seal wear marks, or were you looking at the timing pointer?

This one looks to be the same, timing pointer relative to the balancer, as mine, so I don't see how it couldn't have been on all the way; I guess I'll just have to eat the cost of the new gaskets and time wasted and put it back together, and if it really is off, I'll find out as soon as I mount the other pulleys. While it does look like the balancer is closer to the cover in this pic than in mine, these are different motors (min is a non-HO) and the timing cover in this picture I guess could be aftermarket or something.

edit: I just measured the crank seals, old and new, and the old one appears to sit about 1/8" further out than the new one. D'OH!!

-Jon

50sleeper · May 19, 2009

Yep

From your pic: both the timing pointer and the gap at the back of the balancer, it does not look like its on all the way.

But if you are still unsure do this:

1) Measure the balancer depth from the engine side to the "shelf" inside where the washer sits.

2) On the crank snout measure from the outter end - inward and mark it with a permanent marker the same amount as measurement from part 1

Install balancer and if you can still see your pen mark its not on all the way.

SetofAces · May 20, 2009

Well I already put it on, measurement from the oil pan to the balancer was identical to when I measured it with the cover off (and the balancer clearly all the way on, up against the crank sprocket), so hopefully I'm good; I'm about to put the PS head on, I'll mount the alternator bracket after and then I'll see if the pulleys line up . . . wish me luck . . . from the side it doesn't look right, and it does look different from the other picture a bit, but again I hope that that is because this is a non-HO motor.

mob · May 20, 2009

All I did was put white lithium grease on the neck, and torqued down the bolt to spec. Everything lined up fine.

SetofAces · May 20, 2009

I would have been just fine if I'd never even tripped on the balancer fit the first time; it's on no different now from the way it was before, and the crank pulley lines right up with the fan/ water pump pulley . . . what a waste of time. Btw it slid right on all the way from the very first time, I broke the installation tool because it was already all the way on, right up against the crank sprocket, at least I didn't get charged for the tool . . .

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