High Volume or Standard Oil Pump?

I'm putting together my shortblock this weekend. I have 2 new oil pumps, one is standard the other is high volume which came with my stefs pan.

Which one should I run? If it helps I have already checked my bearing clearances with plastiguage, I'm getting .002 on the mains and about .0015 on the rods, but the rods clearances may have changed, the machine shop resized them when they installed new arp bolts.

Also, if anyone knows off hand, what is the torque on the oil pump bolts and pickup screen bolts?
 
blake89stang said:
i would use the stanard pump. the high volume pump tends to suck the pan dry
Wrong about that...

Here's a quote from Melling's site. Since they make oil pumps, I think they know what they are talking about...


http://www.melling.com/support/bulletins/bulletin-3rd.htm

From the Melling site, for those who didn't follow the link & read the tech note...

logo_support.gif


High Volume Pumps: Advantages, Myths & Fables

Most of the stock automobile engines are designed to operate from idle to 4500 RPM. The original volume and pressure oil pump will work fine in this type of application. As the demands on the engine increase so does the demands on the oiling system and pump.

The oil pump's most difficult task is to supply oil to the connecting rod bearing that is the farthest from the pump. To reach this bearing, the oil travels from three to four feet, turns numerous square corners thru small holes in the crankshaft to the rod bearing. The rod bearing doesn't help matters. It is traveling in a circle which means centrifugal force is pulling the oil out of the bearing.

A 350 Chevy has a 3.4811 stroke and a 2.111 rod journal. The outer edge of the journal travels 17.5311 every revolution. At 1000 RPM, the outer edge is traveling at 16.6 MPH and 74.7 MPH at 4500 RPM. If we take this engine to 6500 the outer edge is up to 107.9 and at 8500 it is 141.1 MPH. Now imagine driving a car around a curve at those speeds and you can feel the centrifugal force. Now imagine doing it around a circle with a 5.581, diameter.

The size of the gears or rotors determines the amount of oil a pump can move at any given RPM. Resistance to this movement creates the pressure. If a pump is not large enough to meet the demands of the engine, there will not be any pressure. Or if the demands of the engine are increased beyond the pumps capabilities there will be a loss of oil pressure. This is where high volume pumps come in; they take care of any increased demands of the engine.

Increases in the engine's oil requirements come from higher RPM, being able to rev faster, increased bearing clearances, remote oil cooler and/or filter and any combination of these. Most high volume pumps also have a increase in pressure to help get the oil out to the bearings faster.

That is what a high volume pump will do. Now let Is consider what it will not do.


It will not replace a rebuild in a worn-out engine. It may increase pressure but the engine is still worn-out.

It will not pump the oil pan dry. Both solid and hydraulic lifters have metering valves to limit flow of the oil to the top of the engine. If a pan is pumped dry, it is because the holes that drain oil back to the pan are plugged. If the high volume pump is also higher pressure, there will be a slight increase in flow to the top.

It will not wear out distributor gears. The load on the gear is directly related to the resistance to flow. Oil pressure is the measure of resistance to flow. The Ford 427 FE "side oiler" used a pump with relief valve set at 125 psi and it used a standard distributor gear. Distributor gear failures are usually caused by a worn gear on a new cam gear and/or worn bearings allowing misalignment.

It will not cause foaming of the oil. With any oil pump, the excess oil not needed by the engine is recirculated within the pump. Any additional foaming is usually created by revving the engine higher. The oil thrown from the rod bearings is going faster and causes the foaming. This is why high performance engines use a windage tray.

It will not cause spark scatter. Because of the pump pressure there is a load on the distributor gear. The number of teeth on the oil pump gears determine the number of impulses per revolution of the pump. In a SB Chevy there are seven teeth on each gear giving 14 impulses per revolution. At 6000 RPM the oil pump is turning 3000 RPM or 50 revolutions per second. To have an effect on the distributor, these impulses would have to vibrate the distributor gear through an intermediate shaft that has loose connections at both ends. Spark scatter is usually caused by weak springs in the points or dust inside the distributor cap.

High volume pumps can be a big advantage if used where needed. If installed in an engine that does not need the additional volume, they will not create a problem. The additional flow will be recirculated within the pump.

Thanks to bubba-dough for helping to educate all of us...
 
Ok, I will run the standard pump.

Just for ****s and giggles, when would a HV pump be required? Does it have anything to do with the bearing clearances, meaning is there a certain clearance that requires an HV pump? If my rods and mains come out to .002 am I still OK with the standard pump? This engine will see 6500rpm quite often

I have read about people installing Standard pumps and they end up pulling them out for HVs because their pressure is too low at idle. I just want to be sure I don't have this problem.
 
jrichker said:
Wrong about that...

Here's a quote from Melling's site. Since they make oil pumps, I think they know what they are talking about...


http://www.melling.com/support/bulletins/bulletin-3rd.htm

From the Melling site, for those who didn't follow the link & read the tech note...

logo_support.gif


High Volume Pumps: Advantages, Myths & Fables

Most of the stock automobile engines are designed to operate from idle to 4500 RPM. The original volume and pressure oil pump will work fine in this type of application. As the demands on the engine increase so does the demands on the oiling system and pump.

The oil pump's most difficult task is to supply oil to the connecting rod bearing that is the farthest from the pump. To reach this bearing, the oil travels from three to four feet, turns numerous square corners thru small holes in the crankshaft to the rod bearing. The rod bearing doesn't help matters. It is traveling in a circle which means centrifugal force is pulling the oil out of the bearing.

A 350 Chevy has a 3.4811 stroke and a 2.111 rod journal. The outer edge of the journal travels 17.5311 every revolution. At 1000 RPM, the outer edge is traveling at 16.6 MPH and 74.7 MPH at 4500 RPM. If we take this engine to 6500 the outer edge is up to 107.9 and at 8500 it is 141.1 MPH. Now imagine driving a car around a curve at those speeds and you can feel the centrifugal force. Now imagine doing it around a circle with a 5.581, diameter.

The size of the gears or rotors determines the amount of oil a pump can move at any given RPM. Resistance to this movement creates the pressure. If a pump is not large enough to meet the demands of the engine, there will not be any pressure. Or if the demands of the engine are increased beyond the pumps capabilities there will be a loss of oil pressure. This is where high volume pumps come in; they take care of any increased demands of the engine.

Increases in the engine's oil requirements come from higher RPM, being able to rev faster, increased bearing clearances, remote oil cooler and/or filter and any combination of these. Most high volume pumps also have a increase in pressure to help get the oil out to the bearings faster.

That is what a high volume pump will do. Now let Is consider what it will not do.


It will not replace a rebuild in a worn-out engine. It may increase pressure but the engine is still worn-out.

It will not pump the oil pan dry. Both solid and hydraulic lifters have metering valves to limit flow of the oil to the top of the engine. If a pan is pumped dry, it is because the holes that drain oil back to the pan are plugged. If the high volume pump is also higher pressure, there will be a slight increase in flow to the top.

It will not wear out distributor gears. The load on the gear is directly related to the resistance to flow. Oil pressure is the measure of resistance to flow. The Ford 427 FE "side oiler" used a pump with relief valve set at 125 psi and it used a standard distributor gear. Distributor gear failures are usually caused by a worn gear on a new cam gear and/or worn bearings allowing misalignment.

It will not cause foaming of the oil. With any oil pump, the excess oil not needed by the engine is recirculated within the pump. Any additional foaming is usually created by revving the engine higher. The oil thrown from the rod bearings is going faster and causes the foaming. This is why high performance engines use a windage tray.

It will not cause spark scatter. Because of the pump pressure there is a load on the distributor gear. The number of teeth on the oil pump gears determine the number of impulses per revolution of the pump. In a SB Chevy there are seven teeth on each gear giving 14 impulses per revolution. At 6000 RPM the oil pump is turning 3000 RPM or 50 revolutions per second. To have an effect on the distributor, these impulses would have to vibrate the distributor gear through an intermediate shaft that has loose connections at both ends. Spark scatter is usually caused by weak springs in the points or dust inside the distributor cap.

High volume pumps can be a big advantage if used where needed. If installed in an engine that does not need the additional volume, they will not create a problem. The additional flow will be recirculated within the pump.

Thanks to bubba-dough for helping to educate all of us...
well i have a high volume oil pump and sometime my oil press drops for a couple second. i have the stock oil pan. i have read that melling stuff before but i believe the pump sucks my pan dry at high rpms.
 
I have NEVER run out of oil in the pan... (since 1970 to present) by using a Hi vol Oil pump!! IF the clearances are stock ( sound like it) then the standard pump is OK! wider rod side clearance (.025) on loose bearings.. then the Hi vol pump!! We install the hi vol pump in all the performance motors!! It is better to have oil than not!! And FORD engine want oil pressure.. unlike the Chevy that will idle at 5 lbs and be good!!

Just me..........................

Thumper
 
blake89stang said:
well i have a high volume oil pump and sometime my oil press drops for a couple second. i have the stock oil pan. i have read that melling stuff before but i believe the pump sucks my pan dry at high rpms.
I have been running HV pumps for over 100,000 miles in two different engines and have never had a problem. Unless you are running an aftermarket gauge, I wouldn't put much faith in any fluctuations you see in oil pressure. My stock gauge dances up and down on a regular basis.

If you have a good aftermarket gauge and see fluctuations, check the pickup tube & screen for cracks or damage. I would sooner believe that they would be the source of any changes than the pump sucking the sump dry.

Melling's statement about flow is where it is at: if you try to pump more oil than the engine can flow, pressure builds up. Once the pressure goes past the point at which the relief valve is set, the oil pressure is relieved and circulated inside the pump.
 
wazazzle said:
i always say.... stock 5qt pan = std pump, 7qt pan = hv pump. otherwise you take the risk of having your hv pump sucking the stock pan dry.



impossible to suck the oil pan dry,that is a myth,IVE run a hi gh volume oil pump for to years with a stock pan and havent had any issues,I installed the pump because i plan on running a turbo in the near future.INstall my pressure never drops below 30 psi and i see close to 6500 and the stock pump is ok at best for high rpms.:nice: