How much boost can you run?

[5spd GT]

You lost me

It happens...

 

[Grn92LX]

Ok

 

[nmcgrawj]

Your losing here bud, I never said the chip could...

So whats the point of bringing it up? I havent heard of having to change spring heights but that in no way means its not necessary. Were yours changed?

Did you not read the thread? The reason (as pointed out by Grn92Lx) is pricing - he listed them...READ THE POST. And on the "shop changing" I was saying a REPUTABLE shop will fix your "chip problem" or try to work with you...what was so hard about that?

lost me there....

Are they boosted? That is what I thought

Anyways...an overall vehicle performance isn't based on what they do at the drag strip. You can sacrifice many things to get those faster times as I have layed out and will continue to do...



I already said the PMS is easier to learn than the tweecer...read the post. I would hope you would have someone to help. Not sure what your point was with that one...lol.



So your saying to take the car on a dyno (having it done by professionals) is throwing out your money Years of experience on similar cars vs. a newbie trying to tune his own...hmm...you make the call on that one. That was a HORRIBLE argument.

Again...are they boosted? If you READ the thread it is about boost...but ya'll are useing h/c/i cars to try to "win him over". Atleast use some boosted applications to try to prove your point...all in all IMO a dyno tune by a reputable shop is the most cost effiecent way to get the car running the way it should. Your able to make the tune you want using a single chip but those who do it all the time IN PERSON.

I didnt literally mean throwing your money away....just throwing your money to the shop to get it tuned. You arent involved in it....some guys LIKE figuring out how to tune it...what it needs...what helps...what hurts. You obviously like just having it fixed...WHICH IS FINE. Im just tired of you trying to say that the chip is the "most efficient way to get there" when you can take a tweecer, pms, eec tuner to the dyno and get it tuned just as fast. If a chip is the way to go...then why are there so many people with tweecer/pms setups? Im sure there are plenty of chips too. They all work (which i stated above but somehow u though i said u were wasting money :dunno and its up to the owner of the car what they want. Its that simple.

We are talking boost...thats why i brought up the boost tables.

Is there ever a time when u dont argue everything to death? lol you are hilarious.

 

[5spd GT]

So whats the point of bringing it up? I havent heard of having to change spring heights but that in no way means its not necessary. Were yours changed?

Because he is constantly going on how great the PMS is and seemingly disgarding all other modes of tuning or even disgarding some that are even better for the original question asker...it was in response to a pattern I have seen as well as others...

lost me there....

"It happens"...

The PMS is cheaper than a dyno tune...and that is a major reason why it is considered one of the "topp'er" choices...

I didnt literally mean throwing your money away....just throwing your money to the shop to get it tuned. You arent involved in it....some guys LIKE figuring out how to tune it...what it needs...what helps...what hurts. You obviously like just having it fixed...WHICH IS FINE. Im just tired of you trying to say that the chip is the "most efficient way to get there" when you can take a tweecer, pms, eec tuner to the dyno and get it tuned just as fast. If a chip is the way to go...then why are there so many people with tweecer/pms setups? Im sure there are plenty of chips too. They all work (which i stated above but somehow u though i said u were wasting money :dunno and its up to the owner of the car what they want. Its that simple.

Do you not understand the difference between getting it done by professionals or totally disregarding them (as some seem to do ). When does that mean I like someone to "fix" it for me. Maybe I (or whoever) want what is best for the car or their goals. In a situation like mine (daily driver - not needing anydown time or time to "play" with it) the dyno tune is a more effiecient way to run it. I dont' have time to play will all these little ions of the fuel/air tables...and then go by my SOTP (not very accurate in any case)... Again there are many because some have the time to sit down and learn the programs (or part of them) but others like myself find that hard to do (time wise). It isn't very effecient. A chip will provide you an overall performance setup for the entire rpm band. Not just down low/half throttle/full throttle tables like grn92lx stated he did. If the owner doesn't know any info on them...how can they know what they want? They need "real world" examples on what might be better for THEIR situation which is where I try to enlighten them on...

We are talking boost...thats why i brought up the boost tables.

The examples you brought up were NOT BOOSTED applications...don't try to twist anything around. Neither I nor anyone else will fall for that for those who are bored enough to read these post.

Is there ever a time when u dont argue everything to death? lol you are hilarious.

Takes two to argue...it is a more decisive disagreement between a party of two or more. Believe it or not I don't talk to myself

 

[nmcgrawj]

Because he is constantly going on how great the PMS is and seemingly disgarding all other modes of tuning or even disgarding some that are even better for the original question asker...it was in response to a pattern I have seen as well as others...

Oh ok, so you are saying that you dont actually ever need to change the spring heights then right?

"It happens"...

The PMS is cheaper than a dyno tune...and that is a major reason why it is considered one of the "topp'er" choices...

Do you not understand the difference between getting it done by professionals or totally disregarding them (as some seem to do ). When does that mean I like someone to "fix" it for me. Maybe I (or whoever) want what is best for the car or their goals. In a situation like mine (daily driver - not needing anydown time or time to "play" with it) the dyno tune is a more effiecient way to run it. I dont' have time to play will all these little ions of the fuel/air tables...and then go by my SOTP (not very accurate in any case)... Again there are many because some have the time to sit down and learn the programs (or part of them) but others like myself find that hard to do (time wise). It isn't very effecient. A chip will provide you an overall performance setup for the entire rpm band. Not just down low/half throttle/full throttle tables like grn92lx stated he did. If the owner doesn't know any info on them...how can they know what they want? They need "real world" examples on what might be better for THEIR situation which is where I try to enlighten them on...

Do you not understand that the same professionals that tune your little chip can tune my pms? Do you not understand that the chip is not the only way to get a well running car? So...if grn92lx or anyone else of that matter doesnt need to change anything else to get it running right, then whats the point of needing to change other factors? The PMS will get the car running as well as your little chip and so will the tweecer. If they didnt....people would not buy them.

Do you think the chip can do things the PMS/tweecer cant? I honestly believe that i could get my PMS tune just as fast as your chip. I dont understand what the deciding factor in this is besides personal opinion. :dunno:

The examples you brought up were NOT BOOSTED applications...don't try to twist anything around. Neither I nor anyone else will fall for that for those who are bored enough to read these post.

You are right...the examples arent. But the reason i brought up the boosted tables is because boost is the discussion here. Got it?

 

[5spd GT]

Oh ok, so you are saying that you dont actually ever need to change the spring heights then right?

The spring heights comment was using sarcasm...you missed the point of the comment anyways...

Do you not understand that the same professionals that tune your little chip can tune my pms? Do you not understand that the chip is not the only way to get a well running car?

I completely understand that. It is not as effiecent. That PMS doesn't "run" with you all day long does it? I understand the chip is not the ONLY way...would you show me where I stated it was? I would like to know...

So...if grn92lx or anyone else of that matter doesnt need to change anything else to get it running right, then whats the point of needing to change other factors? The PMS will get the car running as well as your little chip and so will the tweecer.

How does he know it is running on par for what it should be? By his SOTP? (not very accurate). A dyno (tune) will help him see the whole spectrum and not judge by the butt-o-meter.

If they didnt....people would not buy them.

AGAIN, you missed the point...the price of the PMS is what draws people in as well. I could put on a FRAM filter if I wanted to or you could pay for a K&N air filter. You can buy March pullies or you can buyer a higher quality set. You can buy a powerdyne supercharger or you can buy a Vortech supercharger. You can buy gt40x heads or you can buy AFR heads. See where I'm going with this?

Do you think the chip can do things the PMS/tweecer cant? I honestly believe that i could get my PMS tune just as fast as your chip. I dont understand what the deciding factor in this is besides personal opinion. :dunno:

A chip is a more permanent set...it is the brain for your car instead of a little Q-tip that keeps your ears clean The deciding factor is overall driveability (aka. chip in this case). This is a boosted application...and you keep applying h/c/i guys

You are right...the examples arent. But the reason i brought up the boosted tables is because boost is the discussion here. Got it?

Then why did you bring up the N/A guys? I'm waiting for some "boosted" examples to help "boost" your case...So keep trying...

"It takes two to argue"

 

[nmcgrawj]

The spring heights comment was using sarcasm...you missed the point of the comment anyways...

Oh so i guess that goes with your little inside joke between u and grn92lx? Someone reading would assume you thought u needed to change spring heights to "tune" the car.

How does he know it is running on par for what it should be? By his SOTP? (not very accurate). A dyno (tune) will help him see the whole spectrum and not judge by the butt-o-meter.

One dyno session will show it. You are the king of wanting driveability....you dont need a dyno for driveability do you? Top performance can be attained on the dyno just as quick, if not quicker than your chip.

AGAIN, you missed the point...the price of the PMS is what draws people in as well. I could put on a FRAM filter if I wanted to or you could pay for a K&N air filter. You can buy March pullies or you can buyer a higher quality set. You can buy a powerdyne supercharger or you can buy a Vortech supercharger. You can buy gt40x heads or you can buy AFR heads. See where I'm going with this?

Its funny that you think a PMS is "sub par" to a chip. What makes a chip so much better? Are you running a chip? Are you running a PMS?

A chip is a more permanent set...it is the brain for your car instead of a little Q-tip that keeps your ears clean The deciding factor is overall driveability (aka. chip in this case). This is a boosted application...and you keep applying h/c/i guys

I dont keep applying anyone. Lets give JR a call and see how his PMS tuned his kennebell and i think even his vortech. He couldnt be happier with the thing. Q-tip to clean your ears out? Again, a pms, tweecer, eec tuner is JUST AS GOOD as a chip. If a chip is so much better...then why are there so many people running tweecers, pms's, and eec tuners?

Bottom line is that they all can get it done...its the owners choice to which one to run. Now you are on here saying the chip is superior which it isnt. They all can get the job done...they all have their positives and their negatives. Some people personally dont prefer something but that shouldnt make the actual product inferior to the others when telling someone else about it. Its definately not the brain and q-tip example.

And how is it that you have never run a pms...never ran a tweecer....dont have a chip but are still finding ways to "compare and contrast" each one to say the chip is the best route? Have you ever even been on a dyno? Have you ever checked how long of a wait it can be in the racing season to get dyno time? So you want me to wait 2-3 weeks to get a chip? I can tune my car for driveability in one afternoon when i want to...i can drive around happy and wait those couple of weeks to tune for WOT performance. Instead of having the car sit because i cant drive it without my chip.

Im saying they are equal...but you are saying that these products you dont have arent? How is that? How many guys are unhappy with their PMS, tweecer, eec tuner? How many guys bought one and couldnt tune their car with it?

 

[5spd GT]

Oh so i guess that goes with your little inside joke between u and grn92lx? Someone reading would assume you thought u needed to change spring heights to "tune" the car.

You got to be kidding me...you think someone is actually going to think a computer tuning PMS is going to change the suspension ride height Wow...I'm shocked.

One dyno session will show it. You are the king of wanting driveability....you dont need a dyno for driveability do you? Top performance can be attained on the dyno just as quick, if not quicker than your chip.

The reason why I haven't had my car on the dyno is due to me being a college student and money is very tight currently and recently. Is their a problem with that? I'm the kind of driveability huh? I'll take that...especially when I am one to point out pros/cons of a "mod" rather than just the pros. I also try to post how power numbers are acheived. "Some" try to make a big difference between a 330rwhp car and a 300rwhp when the 330rwhp car has 4 of the accessorie drives removed (fan/air conditioning/power steering/smog pump delete) along with a couple aluminum rotational parts to acheive those peak numbers with the "big" parts...

I don't think your getting the whole chip/dyno deal. You get the chip burnt after your evaluation on the dyno. There is no such thing as comparing a dyno run to a computer tune

Its funny that you think a PMS is "sub par" to a chip. What makes a chip so much better? Are you running a chip? Are you running a PMS?

I have said this several times so far...so I guess I'll say it again. The chip provides a total performance for all controls in the ECU. Because that is what it is. The ECU! The PMS uses the stock ECU as a "passerby" and according to Grn92Lx he messed with his part throttle and WOT fuel table so showing he only has did it in sections and how long has he had the PMS? How long does it take on the dyno and a tune (afternoon) So do I have to run a chip to have any kind of experience in that. You have no clue how many "car guys" I'm around or with. What local forums/clubs I am part of...track meets...dyno days...etc. Same for the PMS...

I dont keep applying anyone. Lets give JR a call and see how his PMS tuned his kennebell and i think even his vortech. He couldnt be happier with the thing. Q-tip to clean your ears out? Again, a pms, tweecer, eec tuner is JUST AS GOOD as a chip.

Go ahead and give him a call...does he have any dyno time to go with the tuning Keep giving examples...so far your h/c/i guy examples are still ahead of your tuner supercharger guys. Time to play catch-up. Your examples earlier were "horrible" because they didn't even apply to the original posters needs

If a chip is so much better...then why are there so many people running tweecers, pms's, and eec tuners?

Lol...I have stated this many times as well...PRICE...it was even shown by Grn92Lx...read the post (again).

Bottom line is that they all can get it done...

Your correct they can all get it done...(some better than others).

its the owners choice to which one to run.

The owner has to know what they are getting into...

Some people personally dont prefer something but that shouldnt make the actual product inferior to the others when telling someone else about it.

Sometimes it is "okay" to look in the mirror on this one (this isn't referring to you...or is it?)

And how is it that you have never run a pms...never ran a tweecer....dont have a chip but are still finding ways to "compare and contrast" each one to say the chip is the best route? Have you ever even been on a dyno? Have you ever checked how long of a wait it can be in the racing season to get dyno time? So you want me to wait 2-3 weeks to get a chip? I can tune my car for driveability in one afternoon when i want to...i can drive around happy and wait those couple of weeks to tune for WOT performance. Instead of having the car sit because i cant drive it without my chip.

I answered this one earlier...you have no clue what "car guys" I'm around or what local forum/clubs and dyno days (one is actually coming up ) I'm a part of...

This is Arkansas...you can set an appointment and get into the local dyno within a couple days...easy.

Did I say you can't drive the car without a chip...absolutely not...quit putting words in my mouth that aren't being typed out Horrible argument when you have to "make-up" stuff

Im saying they are equal...but you are saying that these products you dont have arent? How is that? How many guys are unhappy with their PMS, tweecer, eec tuner? How many guys bought one and couldnt tune their car with it?

I don't think any product in the aftermarket is equal no matter which one is better...so again do I have to have the products to know what works? Do I need to have them sitting beside me on the computer to comment on them? Several guys are unhappy with their PMS, tweecer, ECU tuners...go read up on that. Several guys have bought one and didn't know how to tune their cars due to lack of knowledge or lack of know-how.

Good Luck with your bias

"It takes two to argue"

 

[nmcgrawj]

You got to be kidding me...you think someone is actually going to think a computer tuning PMS is going to change the suspension ride height Wow...I'm shocked.

I didnt know you were talking about suspension...i was thinking of the installed spring heights on the cylinder heads. You never mentioned anything whenever you made that comment. Just a little confusion....

The reason why I haven't had my car on the dyno is due to me being a college student and money is very tight currently and recently. Is their a problem with that? I'm the kind of driveability huh? I'll take that...especially when I am one to point out pros/cons of a "mod" rather than just the pros. I also try to post how power numbers are acheived. "Some" try to make a big difference between a 330rwhp car and a 300rwhp when the 330rwhp car has 4 of the accessorie drives removed (fan/air conditioning/power steering/smog pump delete) along with a couple aluminum rotational parts to acheive those peak numbers with the "big" parts...

Keep your personal battles with grn92lx with him. I thought Tom's combo wasnt very peaky...it seemed broad. And its your opinion that those accessories gave him that much power to make up for it because plenty of guys with more experience, and some even less, tend to disagree.

I don't think your getting the whole chip/dyno deal. You get the chip burnt after your evaluation on the dyno. There is no such thing as comparing a dyno run to a computer tune

I get the chip/dyno deal, who compares a dyno run to a computer tune?

I have said this several times so far...so I guess I'll say it again. The chip provides a total performance for all controls in the ECU. Because that is what it is. The ECU! The PMS uses the stock ECU as a "passerby" and according to Grn92Lx he messed with his part throttle and WOT fuel table so showing he only has did it in sections and how long has he had the PMS? How long does it take on the dyno and a tune (afternoon) So do I have to run a chip to have any kind of experience in that. You have no clue how many "car guys" I'm around or with. What local forums/clubs I am part of...track meets...dyno days...etc. Same for the PMS...

So...with that being said, the Tweecer would be just as good as the cheap then right? The tweecer can change every aspect of the ecu that you would want to touch. And besides that, the PMS has stand alone mode where it doesnt use the ECU at all. That is for WOT performance and on the new 04 pms you can even set it to come on earlier than WOT if you choose to. The PMS is a better/faster computer than the stock ECU.

Go ahead and tune your chip...i bet that you arent going to change much, if anything, more than what the PMS can change. Oh so the PMS cant turn off the EGR light...or adjust for long tubes. Big deal. The stock computer most of the time can handle the part throttle driving....thus thats why grn92lx and others dont have to mess with it. Unless your MAF is a POS like mine then u need to change it.

Your correct they can all get it done...(some better than others).

So what can the chip do that the PMS can't?

I answered this one earlier...you have no clue what "car guys" I'm around or what local forum/clubs and dyno days (one is actually coming up ) I'm a part of...

I couldnt care less who you know or what forums you belong to. Your logic doesnt make sense. The chip is a part of the ECU...the PMS piggy backs the ECU, yet it has stand alone where it doesnt use the ECU? You might want to check into new clubs/forums or research a little bit. Part throttle can be tuned to be just as good as a chip. Im still waiting to see/hear what the chip can get that the PMS cant get......

This is Arkansas...you can set an appointment and get into the local dyno within a couple days...easy.

Did I say you can't drive the car without a chip...absolutely not...quit putting words in my mouth that aren't being typed out Horrible argument when you have to "make-up" stuff

Ummm no, but if u need a tune to drive the car, anyone in general, and you have to wait for dyno time, thats a negative when compared to something that can get you on the road immediately.

I don't think any product in the aftermarket is equal no matter which one is better...so again do I have to have the products to know what works? Do I need to have them sitting beside me on the computer to comment on them? Several guys are unhappy with their PMS, tweecer, ECU tuners...go read up on that. Several guys have bought one and didn't know how to tune their cars due to lack of knowledge or lack of know-how.

Good Luck with your bias

"It takes two to argue"

It helps to know what the products can/can't do. You just hear from people that talk about them...you dont run either. Thats whats wrong with the internet....too many guys who read and think they know all there is to know about a product. (i have fallen victim to this before). And all those guys who are unhappy with the self-tuners...im sure there are 2 times as more that are happy with them. Why would u buy a tuning device and not research how to use it? How many people are unhappy with "chips" that have been burnt? Go read up on that . It goes both ways....positives and negatives.

Bias? I have no bias. Yes i run the PMS...but i will run a Tweecer in a heart beat. Chip? No because i like figuring it out myself...even though sometimes it can be frustrating.

I got a question......since your chip is so wonderful, i have had a problem at WOT and losing power. If it is something in the tune...how hard would it be to diagnose with a chip on the dyno? Better yet, so i go in to get the tune...everything is fine. Next week, problems start....then i gotta schedule another appointment. BUT, the problem doesnt happen everytime, it happends rarely on its own. So i make an appointment but the problem doesnt pop up during it. With a self tuner, you can fix it on your own...whenever you want.

Im still waiting to hear what the chip will get you....that a PMS cant. And please dont describe how each one works or how they are attached to the ECU. What can the chip do that the PMS cant? :dunno:

 

[5spd GT]

I didnt know you were talking about suspension...i was thinking of the installed spring heights on the cylinder heads. You never mentioned anything whenever you made that comment. Just a little confusion....

Nah...I was talking about suspension...I see where you got that from though...

Keep your personal battles with grn92lx with him. I thought Tom's combo wasnt very peaky...it seemed broad. And its your opinion that those accessories gave him that much power to make up for it because plenty of guys with more experience, and some even less, tend to disagree.

I don't have personal battles with anyone (that I know of)...I don't get "personal"...I will debate the problems with him or whoever when they continue to post misleading info. When you post something like you can get 347rwhp instead of these normal 300rwhp combos...and how "old school" they are...that is just ridiculous because it is simply untrue. We all should know by know how he made those numbers. The same as any other guy...

When I said "peak" numbers grn92lx posted his peak number reached which is what was being compared to 300rwhp (average peak number)...I did not mean his whole powerband was peaky. His torque was helped out with the deleted accessories...I think it start getting broad around 2400rpm I think...actually can't remember

He did get those numbers (his numbers were not S.A.E corrected which is down to 332rwhp I think or something like that)...by deleting the accessories (4 total) and having an aluminum flywheel. Many of these 302's are coming out with 310rwhp without all those deletions and "add-ons" (rotating aluminum over cast iron)...just do the math...it adds up...and is correct

I get the chip/dyno deal, who compares a dyno run to a computer tune?

You look at your dyno sheet (to keep this simple) to see where your leaning or running rich and where the powerband is. You can lock in where you want your timing/fuel pressure...mess with all the a/f parameters and make it permanent. No "hook-up" to it...

So...with that being said, the Tweecer would be just as good as the cheap then right? The tweecer can change every aspect of the ecu that you would want to touch. And besides that, the PMS has stand alone mode where it doesnt use the ECU at all. That is for WOT performance and on the new 04 pms you can even set it to come on earlier than WOT if you choose to. The PMS is a better/faster computer than the stock ECU.

Yeah it would be just as good as cheap I know what you meant to type ("it happens")...when it comes to a boosted application a chip is really needed to be "permanent" unlike where you have to hook up your laptop and software. Having both would be very nice. Let me rephrase that: "The PMS allows you to fine tune your STOCK ECU better/faster."

Go ahead and tune your chip...i bet that you arent going to change much, if anything, more than what the PMS can change. Oh so the PMS cant turn off the EGR light...or adjust for long tubes. Big deal. The stock computer most of the time can handle the part throttle driving....thus thats why grn92lx and others dont have to mess with it. Unless your MAF is a POS like mine then u need to change it.

Groverdill on here gained I believe 25hp or so (he was at just over 300rwhp before) with a chip tuned on the dyno. He was at 333rwhp I believe. He had some accessories deleted...but he was making good power before and with a nice shop on his side...the chip provided a permanent power setting and allowed for all around driveability (stock like). Why have a car "handle" the part throttle driving...why not make it were it has no trouble doing it? My MAF is fine as far as I know...I'll eventually need to sell it...

So what can the chip do that the PMS can't?

Without repeating myself I'll just tell you to refer to the "permanency" of a chip. No plug and play Hypertech Programer style A chip is set to your car...a PMS has to be made "to fit". It comes with universal programs not specifically for YOUR car...you got to make it work and then grn92lx is doing all this "testing" by the SOTP...not very reliable and not much basis to get from that IMO.

I couldnt care less who you know or what forums you belong to. Your logic doesnt make sense. The chip is a part of the ECU...the PMS piggy backs the ECU, yet it has stand alone where it doesnt use the ECU? You might want to check into new clubs/forums or research a little bit. Part throttle can be tuned to be just as good as a chip. Im still waiting to see/hear what the chip can get that the PMS cant get......

I don't care if you know what guys I hang around with or what our dyno tuner uses...just trying to show you I'm not speaking off internet hearsay. A couple of you love to use the "internet racers" or "internet myth" post to ya'll's advantage so when someone sees it they think "oh, they know what they are talking about by dispelling myths". That is misleading and is complete bologna. It don't work with me...anyways, The factory chip whether it be an A9L or whatever is the BRAIN...the PMS doesn't function like that. It is a more of an "in-between". So how much is part throttle? 10%, 42%, 82%, etc...can your PMS do all those parameters

Ummm no, but if u need a tune to drive the car, anyone in general, and you have to wait for dyno time, thats a negative when compared to something that can get you on the road immediately.

Well I would hope if your going to install something like a supercharger you would make plans for something like that, whether it be a PMS or chip. It's called organization and planning. You'll need to get the car started before you "tune" it anyways...so starting/driving it is a bit unavoidable Many people "drive" their car without any tuning devices (even blown ones). Mustangdaren is one of them...(h/c/i and supercharger)...

It helps to know what the products can/can't do. You just hear from people that talk about them...you dont run either. Thats whats wrong with the internet....too many guys who read and think they know all there is to know about a product. (i have fallen victim to this before). And all those guys who are unhappy with the self-tuners...im sure there are 2 times as more that are happy with them. Why would u buy a tuning device and not research how to use it? How many people are unhappy with "chips" that have been burnt? Go read up on that . It goes both ways....positives and negatives.

What are you saying I don't "run". So my friends (close friends) in who's cars I have drove and drive means nothing...my own research in person and via media doesn't help either? You think I have following victim Okay...lol. Of course it goes both ways: (in general)...that is all I try to do is display positive/negatives. When the PMS is posted as the "best" (inferred)...I have to "chip in" the chip factor which is a more popular form for your blown daily drivers if you go to your local dyno that offers a chip tune. Go ahead and ask...

I read up on many things...experience many things...

Bias? I have no bias. Yes i run the PMS...but i will run a Tweecer in a heart beat. Chip? No because i like figuring it out myself...even though sometimes it can be frustrating.

You don't like figuring "it" out for yourself. You wouldn't be "asking" questions on these forums. Bad argument there...(looks/sounds familiar). Sometimes it is best to avoid the frustrating part. Some have actually just sold their cars do to frustration...(something me and you wouldn't get to). I have did a clutch install on my car 4 times now...and the last time I had a rear main seal leak and I just decided to pay my very well trusted mechanic to change it out (basically a clutch install). I paid some out of my pocket but I gave him very specific orders on what to do (how I like it) and he knows me so I fought the frustration that way...we all have different ways I guess...

Anyways...the PMS/Tweecer provides way to much trial and error to truely see what is actually happening. And when it comes down to it, you still need to get on a dyno/track to see any improvements. So why not do it all at once (chip/tune).?

I got a question......since your chip is so wonderful, i have had a problem at WOT and losing power. If it is something in the tune...how hard would it be to diagnose with a chip on the dyno? Better yet, so i go in to get the tune...everything is fine. Next week, problems start....then i gotta schedule another appointment. BUT, the problem doesnt happen everytime, it happends rarely on its own. So i make an appointment but the problem doesnt pop up during it. With a self tuner, you can fix it on your own...whenever you want.

Is my chip so wonderful? Where did I mention that? You don't diagnose a problem with a chip? They have code readers that help with that along with proffessionals on the cars or you can just use your own knowledge and fix it. If it happened directly after the computer chip itself. Go back to your tuner and have him correct it...that is why I say go to a reputable shop...

You may be able to fix it yourself...but how can you do that if it only happens here and there? Same timing as a dyno. Again if the problem is computer related you need to consult with a REPUTABLE shop and they should fix you up and set you an appointment that works out nicely and timely.

Im still waiting to hear what the chip will get you....that a PMS cant. And please dont describe how each one works or how they are attached to the ECU. What can the chip do that the PMS cant? :dunno:

Already discussed that...

Good Luck with your PMS or ABC's or whatever it's called (j/k).

 

[nmcgrawj]

You look at your dyno sheet (to keep this simple) to see where your leaning or running rich and where the powerband is. You can lock in where you want your timing/fuel pressure...mess with all the a/f parameters and make it permanent. No "hook-up" to it...

Yeah it would be just as good as cheap I know what you meant to type ("it happens")...when it comes to a boosted application a chip is really needed to be "permanent" unlike where you have to hook up your laptop and software. Having both would be very nice. Let me rephrase that: "The PMS allows you to fine tune your STOCK ECU better/faster."

David, like i said before...learn the products you try to speak down on. The PMS itself does not have ANY software or a need for a laptop to be hooked up. Know if you upgrade and get those OPTIONS, then the PMS furthers its ability and what it can change. Learn before you speak about it.....

Groverdill on here gained I believe 25hp or so (he was at just over 300rwhp before) with a chip tuned on the dyno. He was at 333rwhp I believe. He had some accessories deleted...but he was making good power before and with a nice shop on his side...the chip provided a permanent power setting and allowed for all around driveability (stock like). Why have a car "handle" the part throttle driving...why not make it were it has no trouble doing it? My MAF is fine as far as I know...I'll eventually need to sell it...

You know before, you did argue the positives and negatives of mods and such. But now, you are BS'ing everyone who reads this who doesnt know better.(I doubt anyone is still reading) So i guess if Groverdill ran a PMS or Tweecer, he wouldnt have gained that power? I guess people who dont run chips that are burnt on dynos dont gain power do they? The reason for a tuner is for max performance and safety(and driveability etc etc). Some people gain more than others...why? Is it because of the tuner they choose? I doubt it...i would say the MAF plays a big role in it since if its calibration is off, then the air/fuel ratio will be off. But again, every tuner will gain you power if you need it. I love how you are trying to make the PMS inferior to the chip. Bottom line, the PMS'd car can/will drive just as well as a car with a chip.

Without repeating myself I'll just tell you to refer to the "permanency" of a chip. No plug and play Hypertech Programer style A chip is set to your car...a PMS has to be made "to fit". It comes with universal programs not specifically for YOUR car...you got to make it work and then grn92lx is doing all this "testing" by the SOTP...not very reliable and not much basis to get from that IMO.

Yea and grn92lx is the basis of how everyone with a PMS tunes? Universal programs? Man, YOU MAKE THE PROGRAM. LOL Again, learn before you speak. The PMS comes with all zeros in every slot. Sure, AFM sends a start up sheet if you want it...but you can go to the dyno, or use a wideband, and tune the program for your specific car.

I don't care if you know what guys I hang around with or what our dyno tuner uses...just trying to show you I'm not speaking off internet hearsay. A couple of you love to use the "internet racers" or "internet myth" post to ya'll's advantage so when someone sees it they think "oh, they know what they are talking about by dispelling myths". That is misleading and is complete bologna. It don't work with me...anyways, The factory chip whether it be an A9L or whatever is the BRAIN...the PMS doesn't function like that. It is a more of an "in-between". So how much is part throttle? 10%, 42%, 82%, etc...can your PMS do all those parameters

I wonder if there was a need for all those percentages then why didnt AFM put them in? Its not cause they couldnt...because they made more "break points" on the 04 version so im sure they could have made a million. Why? I would think its because its not completely necessary to have all of them. The PMS can work the areas inbetween the break points so that you get the best driveability possible. And again, the last time i checked...the PMS didnt use the ECU in stand alone mode.

You don't like figuring "it" out for yourself. You wouldn't be "asking" questions on these forums. Bad argument there...(looks/sounds familiar). Sometimes it is best to avoid the frustrating part.

Hmmm i dont? So i guess with people that have had the same problems before it wouldnt be a smart thing to talk to them about it would it? Asking questions and then going out in your driveway to turn wrenches yourself is a BIG difference then from going and giving money to a shop to fix it. And i completely understand you paying a mechanic to do that...it would get annoying after doing it so many times. If you dont feel like it...you dont feel like it.


Bottom line David, the PMS can get a car running just as well as a chip, tweecer, or anything else. I dont like the fact that if you change something, you need to get it retuned by the shop....and you dont like the fact that you cant tell what you are really doing without being on a dyno. That just goes back to whoever is buying the tuner and what they prefer. Dont try to make the PMS seem like its just some little wanna be tuner that will not be able to tune the car. Because its the exact opposite.

 

[5spd GT]

David, like i said before...learn the products you try to speak down on. The PMS itself does not have ANY software or a need for a laptop to be hooked up. Know if you upgrade and get those OPTIONS, then the PMS furthers its ability and what it can change. Learn before you speak about it.....

What are you trying to pull here...in the quote of what you just quoted you were talking about a Tweecer in the above post in which I was referring to...don't try to twist it around I was referring to the Tweecer and I would have hoped you realized that...so I guess I did "learn before I spoke"...because I was talking about the Tweecer...

You know before, you did argue the positives and negatives of mods and such. But now, you are BS'ing everyone who reads this who doesnt know better.(I doubt anyone is still reading) So i guess if Groverdill ran a PMS or Tweecer, he wouldnt have gained that power? I guess people who dont run chips that are burnt on dynos dont gain power do they? The reason for a tuner is for max performance and safety(and driveability etc etc). Some people gain more than others...why? Is it because of the tuner they choose? I doubt it...i would say the MAF plays a big role in it since if its calibration is off, then the air/fuel ratio will be off. But again, every tuner will gain you power if you need it. I love how you are trying to make the PMS inferior to the chip. Bottom line, the PMS'd car can/will drive just as well as a car with a chip.

Don't worry I'm still talking about postive and negatives...that won't stop because it is REAL info...I'm not going to sugarcoat anything or make one appear SO much better than the other like some others like to do GroverDill wouldn't have had to "buy" a laptop or the software but rather the tune on the dyno and get it dialed in permanently and gives OEM type driveability because it effects ALL the powerband. Not idle/part throttle at a certain % or WOT...it effects ALL...

I don't think the different power gains are in the MAF like that...that can be a factor but that doesn't account for these differences in power...that is more based on the internal condition and setup of the cars. Not the MAF...the production of those things is so high-scale and done so repeditively the quality of the calibration is right on...but it could be a factor in individual cases. Not to many cars are exactly alike in mods and especially in internal condition (blow-by) or the valvetrain setup. Some have more "deletions" or "aluminum" rotating mass losses...that effects numbers...

So if the "bottom line" is a PMS will drive and make power just like a chip will...why do "some" promote the PMS or Tweecer above a chip

Yea and grn92lx is the basis of how everyone with a PMS tunes? Universal programs? Man, YOU MAKE THE PROGRAM. LOL Again, learn before you speak. The PMS comes with all zeros in every slot. Sure, AFM sends a start up sheet if you want it...but you can go to the dyno, or use a wideband, and tune the program for your specific car.

No I was referring to how he promotes it like he is a sponsor of it...just like any part I have seen him run or want to run...sometimes I think he gets paid for it Well if "YOU" make the program then does it come with a program in it? (Universal Program)...you can adjust it yourself...and then judge it by the SOTP...lol.

I wonder if there was a need for all those percentages then why didnt AFM put them in? Its not cause they couldnt...because they made more "break points" on the 04 version so im sure they could have made a million. Why? I would think its because its not completely necessary to have all of them. The PMS can work the areas inbetween the break points so that you get the best driveability possible. And again, the last time i checked...the PMS didnt use the ECU in stand alone mode.

Well I like the "break points" calculated by the chip from the readings of the MAF/TPS/etc...all around performance is a wonder Again I'm talking about blown applications (the original point that got interrupted with n/a examples...ha.)...I wouldn't want any "break points" when you might be running hypereutic (sp?) pistons or a weaker headgasket and trying to avoid detonation because it can occur at any rpm...so should we set programs to certain rpms with a PMS or get a "complete" tune with a chip for the blown application?

Hmmm i dont? So i guess with people that have had the same problems before it wouldnt be a smart thing to talk to them about it would it? Asking questions and then going out in your driveway to turn wrenches yourself is a BIG difference then from going and giving money to a shop to fix it. And i completely understand you paying a mechanic to do that...it would get annoying after doing it so many times. If you dont feel like it...you dont feel like it.

I believe you missed the point of what I was trying to say with letting someone else do the work...but summed it up well at the end with, "If you dont feel like it...you dont feel like it." In that case it got tiresome/stressful and I absouletly NEED my car and this was during school times. It is much more effecient for him to work on it during a day and have it done that afternoon then me trying to do it myself (after already attempting to tackle the seal) when juggling all the things I do or have going on...

Bottom line David, the PMS can get a car running just as well as a chip, tweecer, or anything else. I dont like the fact that if you change something, you need to get it retuned by the shop....and you dont like the fact that you cant tell what you are really doing without being on a dyno. That just goes back to whoever is buying the tuner and what they prefer. Dont try to make the PMS seem like its just some little wanna be tuner that will not be able to tune the car. Because its the exact opposite.

If you change something you do not need to get it retuned by a shop...who told you that? If that was true if we put on a different MAF, header (since you weren't being specific enough), pullies, battery...we need to get the chip reburnt or flashed on the stock ECU...I DON'T THINK SO...so I'm not for sure what chip your talking about... You were to general with that statement so I will return the favor...

Your correct...I don't judge SOTP as an accurate portrait of the power or driveability gained (mainly power)...you should realize that...

I never said the PMS can't tune a car...but it is exxagerated by some on here to an unneeded extreme on what it can do...giving a false sense of security and ease...although it is very helpful. Just not enough real info given on it...

 

[nmcgrawj]

Oh sorry about that man, didnt realize you were just talking about the Tweecer because you can buy software and hook up a laptop when using the PMS. All is good.


Why are you trying to make it "seem" like the PMS is limited to a certain degree and that a chip will be able to tune better since it can tune "all" of the power band? Once again, the PMS can get the same tune that a chip will...in ALL of the power band


I brought up the MAF for the since of tuning. Obviously engine conditions and other things have a great affect on power. But changing what "tunes" the car isnt going to gain power. Thats all i was trying to say.

I dont understand with you still pushing this "universal program" bs. You make the program depending on what you car needs. So how about we go to the dyno and tune...i will be able to tune my car just as fast as your chip can be tuned and the tune will be just as good.

You know what i meant about changing something on the car. Dont play the dumb a$$ role and say to change a battery or something stupid like that. If you do get a new MAF and the calibration is different (which it can be because no calibration is perfect nor are two the same) then most likely your tune COULD BE improved. Could you still drive it? Sure. I was referring to if you change your combo...change the cam. Port the heads. Add a blower/turbo. Back to the dyno to get it retuned. More $$$.


To over promote something is wrong, but to short cut it is also wrong. Saying the PMS is not capable of a "complete" tune is a bunch of BS. I guess the guys over at Anderson Ford Motorsports are just coming up with toys that dont work too well If you understood how a PMS worked then you would see the tune is just as complete as the tweecer's tune and a chip's tune. Its the extras that come with each option that should make the decision for the buyer.



I had a question for you or anyone else. And by the way, this isnt to try to put chip's down or anything, its for my knowledge of how the process works. How can the dyno take into affect road conditions that the car actually runs into? I understand how it could do WOT performance, but how about hills or something that give it different loads. I just dont see how a car can be "completely" tuned on a dyno when the car isnt actually driven on the dyno on a daily basis. It is driven on the street where it can be tuned by the tweecer/pms. Anyway, just let me know, i thought about this while driving today.

 

[5spd GT]

Oh sorry about that man, didnt realize you were just talking about the Tweecer because you can buy software and hook up a laptop when using the PMS. All is good.

Why are you trying to make it "seem" like the PMS is limited to a certain degree and that a chip will be able to tune better since it can tune "all" of the power band? Once again, the PMS can get the same tune that a chip will...in ALL of the power band

You know what...I think we are going to need proof on this...but I still think for a blower application there is no need for a "piggyback"...but replace the whole ECU to control the new a/f flow and ratios...

I brought up the MAF for the since of tuning. Obviously engine conditions and other things have a great affect on power. But changing what "tunes" the car isnt going to gain power. Thats all i was trying to say.

You can gain power if the "tuny" or "tuner" has something that can help tune more parameters and is knowledgable in the subject...If you have a backyard tune (fuel pressure/timing/plugs) vs. a dyno tuner (accompanied by a dyno) he can get more power out of it

I dont understand with you still pushing this "universal program" bs. You make the program depending on what you car needs. So how about we go to the dyno and tune...i will be able to tune my car just as fast as your chip can be tuned and the tune will be just as good.

Here is what I'm talking about the "universal program"...So is the PMS for your car fit in the same application as a 95 Ford Windstar? Not likely...because the tuning parameters are for the 5.0L 302 I would assume...

You know what i meant about changing something on the car. Dont play the dumb a$$ role and say to change a battery or something stupid like that. If you do get a new MAF and the calibration is different (which it can be because no calibration is perfect nor are two the same) then most likely your tune COULD BE improved. Could you still drive it? Sure. I was referring to if you change your combo...change the cam. Port the heads. Add a blower/turbo. Back to the dyno to get it retuned. More $$$.

I may now what your talking about or mean...but do any readers (if they still are reading this "mess") know what you mean? Why take the chance...general comments get general replies. Well if you change something like a cam/heads/blower/turbo...are you just going to tune it with the PMS and be done with it and judge by the SOTP AGAIN? Your still going to want to go to the dyno (just like a chip) but you will still be piggybacking...

In short...you still need to go to the dyno to see the real gains...no matter what...you think it is okay to judge by the SOTP...but I like doing that and getting a real visual on what is really going on? How do you know by the SOTP if your car is running rich or lean? Kind of hard to find out eh?

So their is more $$$ either way...but the chip allows a non-piggyback style...and no computer messes to keep with you at the track (dangerous/expensive if it's stolen...lol)...and more weight and what about a computer crash

To over promote something is wrong, but to short cut it is also wrong. Saying the PMS is not capable of a "complete" tune is a bunch of BS. I guess the guys over at Anderson Ford Motorsports are just coming up with toys that dont work too well If you understood how a PMS worked then you would see the tune is just as complete as the tweecer's tune and a chip's tune. Its the extras that come with each option that should make the decision for the buyer.

Well what I see from "some" is overpromotion while cutting down the others with comments like "small" or "if you have to go with AFR's get...(insert size here)"...that is shortcutting...

AFM makes some pretty nice products...but does that mean the chips are bad? or the PMS is superior because you can tune it YOURSELF? I'll leave that to the pros for now...where it belongs...I'm pretty computer savvy with some programs but I still fill it best to leave some jobs to others...let the pros do it...

I had a question for you or anyone else. And by the way, this isnt to try to put chip's down or anything, its for my knowledge of how the process works. How can the dyno take into affect road conditions that the car actually runs into? I understand how it could do WOT performance, but how about hills or something that give it different loads. I just dont see how a car can be "completely" tuned on a dyno when the car isnt actually driven on the dyno on a daily basis. It is driven on the street where it can be tuned by the tweecer/pms. Anyway, just let me know, i thought about this while driving today.

I wouldn't know on that one...might want to ask Ford (if you could...lol)...since they make the computers like that. I'm sure just like the chips on the AODE's how the timing is pulled between shiftpoints something similar could be "simulated" to pull timing or add it for whatever the driver is trying to acheive or drive on

 

[nmcgrawj]

You know what...I think we are going to need proof on this...but I still think for a blower application there is no need for a "piggyback"...but replace the whole ECU to control the new a/f flow and ratios...




You can gain power if the "tuny" or "tuner" has something that can help tune more parameters and is knowledgable in the subject...If you have a backyard tune (fuel pressure/timing/plugs) vs. a dyno tuner (accompanied by a dyno) he can get more power out of it


AFM makes some pretty nice products...but does that mean the chips are bad? or the PMS is superior because you can tune it YOURSELF? I'll leave that to the pros for now...where it belongs...I'm pretty computer savvy with some programs but I still fill it best to leave some jobs to others...let the pros do it...



I wouldn't know on that one...might want to ask Ford (if you could...lol)...since they make the computers like that. I'm sure just like the chips on the AODE's how the timing is pulled between shiftpoints something similar could be "simulated" to pull timing or add it for whatever the driver is trying to acheive or drive on

If you dont know..then how is it that with this new combination, anyone buy Ford can get the tune right?

And why do you think that a PMS cant get the same tune? Who has gotten a PMS and then got a tune with a chip and got results that the PMS itself couldnt attain...not what the TUNER couldnt attain.

Back yard tuning shouldnt even be considered when talking about chips, PMS, tweecer, etc.

I never said a chip is bad...you are the one putting the PMS down. I said they all work. I PREFER the PMS for the reasons everyone knows....

 

[5spd GT]

If you dont know..then how is it that with this new combination, anyone buy Ford can get the tune right?

"You lost me there"...??

If you meant anyone that works for Ford can get the tune right?...I'll answer to that...I never said any Ford worker can get it right...that is just plain silly...I said I don't know...get a hold of someone in the higher ranks (if you can)...or someone that actually knows the programming in them. I don't think you were bringing up a very valid point to begin with in the other post anyways...

And why do you think that a PMS cant get the same tune? Who has gotten a PMS and then got a tune with a chip and got results that the PMS itself couldnt attain...not what the TUNER couldnt attain.

You tell me...

Back yard tuning shouldnt even be considered when talking about chips, PMS, tweecer, etc.

Again what are you trying to pull here...I was responding to this comment you made...

"But changing what "tunes" the car isnt going to gain power." That was the comment I was referring to...again your doing a bit of twisting or stretching to get the desired length

I never said a chip is bad...you are the one putting the PMS down. I said they all work. I PREFER the PMS for the reasons everyone knows....

I put the PMS "down" because it was being shown as the ONLY way to tune a blown application from the get-go and it has been continously for a while now by "some"...

Everyone knows?

 

[nmcgrawj]

David...david...david

I think we are "fighting" battles which we dont need to be.

I meant that if Ford got it right, how can a shop other than Ford get it right. How will the dyno know what this new combination will run into? It is a VERY valid point because some people are very un happy with chips regardless of where they are from. Likewise, some people are unhappy with other tuners. Its just my opinion that a tweecer/pms is more versatile than a chip. It can TUNE the computer...now you want to get into all the other perameters that it can affect and i call those "extras" which should make the decision for the buyer. The question is will the product tune the computer...and the answer is yes. With people who have equal abilities to tune, the tune will be just as good with all 3 tuners discussed here.

Yea thats right...i did say that about the tuners. But thats like comparing a combo you throw together versus a combo straight from Ed at FTI. Backyard tuning is not in the same league as a REAL tuning device that TUNES THE COMPUTER. Not adjusting fuel pressure and timing which only goes so far. No one is trying to stretch anything.

Like i said before, this is a battle for you and someone else because i never said the PMS is the ONLY way to tune the combo. I prefer the PMS or Tweecer...just like you PREFER the chip.

I said "everyone knows" because it has been stated in this thread before.

BTW, just because someone said its the only way you have to put the product down? Why cant u just inform them about the product in which u prefer?

 

[5spd GT]

David...david...david

That's my name - don't wear it out

I think we are "fighting" battles which we dont need to be.

Possibly...

I meant that if Ford got it right, how can a shop other than Ford get it right. How will the dyno know what this new combination will run into? It is a VERY valid point because some people are very un happy with chips regardless of where they are from. Likewise, some people are unhappy with other tuners. Its just my opinion that a tweecer/pms is more versatile than a chip. It can TUNE the computer...now you want to get into all the other perameters that it can affect and i call those "extras" which should make the decision for the buyer. The question is will the product tune the computer...and the answer is yes. With people who have equal abilities to tune, the tune will be just as good with all 3 tuners discussed here.

When did Ford "get it right" and how does that have anything to do with a tuner for a MODDED CAR. Ford made their program smoothly/effiecently/easily/cheaply and it got the job done...the factory ECU is very forgiving to mods if you have the MAF on the 89-93's...yours are a bit more tricky. That could be part of our "arguing" problem because it is for a different kind of car...I really think it would be good to get "ya'll's" touchy computer out of there IMO.

The dyno isn't supposed to know what the combination will run into...I'm not for sure where you got that from???? The tuner accounts for different timing/fuel/air needs...not the dyno...the dyno tells you where your at and that leads you to the tuing aspect. Two different things.

Yea thats right...i did say that about the tuners. But thats like comparing a combo you throw together versus a combo straight from Ed at FTI. Backyard tuning is not in the same league as a REAL tuning device that TUNES THE COMPUTER. Not adjusting fuel pressure and timing which only goes so far. No one is trying to stretch anything.

I was simply responding to your general comment. Like I said...a general statement (you) will get a general response (me)...

Like i said before, this is a battle for you and someone else because i never said the PMS is the ONLY way to tune the combo. I prefer the PMS or Tweecer...just like you PREFER the chip.

Correct...

I said "everyone knows" because it has been stated in this thread before.

General comment ='s General statement

BTW, just because someone said its the only way you have to put the product down? Why cant u just inform them about the product in which u prefer?

I just try to even the playing field out...but that is a good point...

It is hard to make any kind of case when "someone" says "skip the chip and go with a PMS/Tweecer" and then alls I can say is "I really like the chip and does fine for me"...get what I'm saying on that?

On the above...I know you didn't say that...but I have seen that approach SEVERAL times and it get's old...

 

[nmcgrawj]

When did Ford "get it right" and how does that have anything to do with a tuner for a MODDED CAR. Ford made their program smoothly/effiecently/easily/cheaply and it got the job done...the factory ECU is very forgiving to mods if you have the MAF on the 89-93's...yours are a bit more tricky. That could be part of our "arguing" problem because it is for a different kind of car...I really think it would be good to get "ya'll's" touchy computer out of there IMO.

The dyno isn't supposed to know what the combination will run into...I'm not for sure where you got that from???? The tuner accounts for different timing/fuel/air needs...not the dyno...the dyno tells you where your at and that leads you to the tuing aspect. Two different things.

The reason i brought all this up is that the dyno cant anticipate what the car will experience on the road. Maybe WOT performance...but not every part throttle experience. Thats why i said a tweecer/pms is a good thing to have because you can see what happends while you are driving....make changes...and be on your way. But then again, i guess someone with enough experience can tune it well enough to get around that, too bad everyone doesnt have someone "good enough" to always get that done.

I just try to even the playing field out...but that is a good point...

It is hard to make any kind of case when "someone" says "skip the chip and go with a PMS/Tweecer" and then alls I can say is "I really like the chip and does fine for me"...get what I'm saying on that?

On the above...I know you didn't say that...but I have seen that approach SEVERAL times and it get's old...

Well i understand where you are coming from. Like i said its not our battle but your battle with others. People have had bad luck with chips, pms's, tweecer's, but the question is whether the bad luck was because of the actual product or the person using the product. With the knowledge each product can be just as good as any other, but like i said above, not everyone has a person "good enough" to get the job done right the first time. Thats why i like the PMS because its the "easiest" to tune with...and unless you have an extreme combo, i cant see any tuning combo being difficult to get done.

 

[nmcgrawj]

I really think it would be good to get "ya'll's" touchy computer out of there IMO.

This is another arguement in itself....but IMO thats a complete waste of time. The older computers will need a tune at one point or another so why go back in the future only to have to tune it? When you tune our computers, they are fine and will be just as good as the Fox computer tuned.


If you keep it stock with no other tuning device than yea, the older one is better. But if you are modding it...then u will need a tune at some point or another on ANY computer for maximum performance, safety, efficiency, etc.