Input shaft seal? AGAIN?!? AAARRGHH!!

[Darkwriter77]

Car's had a steady, small, but annoying tranny fluid leak since I bought it. Got to the point that it finally glazed the clutch and made it slip under anything more than 50% throttle. Three days ago (and busting my butt for 10 hours straight) I put in a new King Cobra clutch kit, rear main seal, and input shaft seal. Made sure everything was torqued down evenly and to specs, drove in the seals nice n' straight (used a socket for the input shaft seal, and the old rear main to drive in the new one), cleaned all the old RTV off the bearing retainer and put on a nice, even bead of Ultra Copper RTV. Even gave it all a few hours to set up and cure before starting it and driving around.

Well, 50 miles later, the trans fluid leak's right back where it was - coming from the front of the tranny (bellhousing), leaving a little telltale drop or two wherever I park. I'm sooooo not happy that my new KC clutch is at risk of becoming crap after less than 100 miles.

Anyone know what could've gone wrong? The old seal I took out didn't look bad at all, actually, but that was directly where the leak was originating from. No cracks in the tranny case, either. Only thing I can figure is that maybe the (stock aluminum) bearing retainer is warped or something. I keep reading ads for the steel bearing retainers that "the old aluminum retainers will WEAR OUT." HOW?!? It's not a moving part, and the only true wear is on the bearing cup, cone, and seal that it houses. But if not that ... then what?

My car hates me. First the demonic possession, and now this...

 

[2002BLGT]

get a steal bearing retainer , it should come with a new seal and race , but do yourself a favor and get a new cone bearing that goes on the input shaft right there , and check the input shaft itself for wear , you might need a new one ......if so go to hanlonmotorsports.com and get a hardned one from there ........

 

[87'GTstang]

I know a lot of people forget a major thing when they install new seals - did you forget the lithium-based grease on the wear surface of the seal?

Another commonly over-looked problem is that some people think a new seal will fix things when in an severe or long-term wear part, bearings and races just start wearing out creating runout so to speak or play - which can accelerate the wear of even new parts very fast. Check for any play in the input shaft and inspect how the front bearings and especially the race look if nothing else works out.

As for wear on the aluminum quill (bearing retainer shaft), thousands of cycles from the throwout bearing riding along it just starts wearing it down with all the force it has to endure. The only problem when they really wear down is that it creates a awkward clutch pedal feel when pressing and depressing the clutch pedal. Other than that there's nothing detrimental to keeping the stock one if it's of no concern to yourself.

 

[2002BLGT]

put a dial caliper on the input shaft where it goes in the pilot bearing and measure its tolerance to a new one , if theres alot of play there , it will blow out seals until that is fixed also

 

[Darkwriter77]

I've been leaning towards getting a new steel retainer, dropping everything behind the bellhousing again just to poke that little bugger on, and then hoping that will solve it. I'll be having to do this within the next week or so, as I don't want to screw up the new clutch.

But if the retainer doesn't do the trick ... ARGHH! At this point I think I'd sooner start looking for another 'Stang or a Mark VII than blow money on putting in another tranny (I'm not quite adventurous enough to tear into the tranny internals), especially considering the miles on this thing.

A hardened supa-dupa input shaft goes for something like $150, last I read. That's $100 more than I'm willing to put into this same repair...

Can anyone else confirm that the bearing retainer's the culprit? Surely someone else besides me has had a front-end tranny leak...? (Or is this Satan once again cursing my car with his presence?)

 

[2002BLGT]

I've been leaning towards getting a new steel retainer, dropping everything behind the bellhousing again just to poke that little bugger on, and then hoping that will solve it. I'll be having to do this within the next week or so, as I don't want to screw up the new clutch.

But if the retainer doesn't do the trick ... ARGHH! At this point I think I'd sooner start looking for another 'Stang or a Mark VII than blow money on putting in another tranny (I'm not quite adventurous enough to tear into the tranny internals), especially considering the miles on this thing.

A hardened supa-dupa input shaft goes for something like $150, last I read. That's $100 more than I'm willing to put into this same repair...

if you have torn it down that far , I would think you can probably do the input shaft, but if not , take the new parts and tranny to a tranny shop and from your mods list I would say your car is worth fixing IMO , if this is your only problem .....fix it ......

 

[Darkwriter77]

Wow. Those were some speedy replies! Many thanks.

I didn't take a caliper to it while I had it out, but I did check the input shaft by hand for any play. It's plenty firm and snug right where it is, no wobbly-ness detected ... well, as much as my un-calibrated hands could detect, anyway.

If it is the input shaft, itself, then I think I may as well ditch the car, altogether, as I can't justify spending the dough on a tranny rebuild or replacement. If the car had half the miles it does, then I might, but with 240k+ on the clock ... nahhh. It's a zippy daily driver for me, not a show, resto, or pure strip car.

The tranny I pulled out of a Honda that I previously had with similar problems (kept spewing tranny fluid and ruining clutches) had some MAJOR up-down-side-side play in the input shaft. I swapped in a tranny from an '84 CRX and the problem was fixed ... and then it began anew, even with the different trans. New pilot bearing, rear main seal, and so forth each time, too. Only thing I could figure was there was something up with the rear of the crank that was wobbling the input shaft around and wallowing out the seals. I kinda halfway wonder if maybe that might be the case with my 'Stang, being that the motor was rebuilt a few years back - a wobble-butted crankshaft?

 

[2002BLGT]

I would go ahead and spring for the bearing retainer , it will come with a new seal and some come with a new race depending on where you buy it I think , if not either way I would put in a new bearing and race since your are right there at it and cross your fingers , I just put my new king cobra clutch , bearing retainer and 6 tooth speedo drive gear in the other night , but I do have a lift and tranny jack in my garage in my back yard so its not that hard for me now a days ........

 

[87'GTstang]

Wow. Those were some speedy replies! Many thanks.

I didn't take a caliper to it while I had it out, but I did check the input shaft by hand for any play. It's plenty firm and snug right where it is, no wobbly-ness detected ... well, as much as my un-calibrated hands could detect, anyway.

If it is the input shaft, itself, then I think I may as well ditch the car, altogether, as I can't justify spending the dough on a tranny rebuild or replacement. If the car had half the miles it does, then I might, but with 240k+ on the clock ... nahhh. It's a zippy daily driver for me, not a show, resto, or pure strip car.

The tranny I pulled out of a Honda that I previously had with similar problems (kept spewing tranny fluid and ruining clutches) had some MAJOR up-down-side-side play in the input shaft. I swapped in a tranny from an '84 CRX and the problem was fixed ... and then it began anew, even with the different trans. New pilot bearing, rear main seal, and so forth each time, too. Only thing I could figure was there was something up with the rear of the crank that was wobbling the input shaft around and wallowing out the seals. I kinda halfway wonder if maybe that might be the case with my 'Stang, being that the motor was rebuilt a few years back - a wobble-butted crankshaft?

Have faith. Mine has 18 years on it and 276k on practically everything at one point. It has taken me a year and a half to rip open most of the car and I am about on the last rounds with ripping out the stock 5.0 with as many miles and in the current proccess of piecing my new one together. I rebuilt my T5 (don't ask why it is an 83' NWC but at least someone put the better of the T5s in it) and it is a straight-forward tranny. It's a simple counter and main cluster top-loader style tranny. The four bolts on the front of the case (mind you the bellhousing has a perfect circle cut out for the retainer and this has nothing to do with the sealing properties) holds it in there. The actual sealing has everything to do with the contact of the bearing retainer to the front of the case and the input shaft seal itself.

If you are going to get rid of that car, I really wouldn't mind taking on another project (the Mrs. wants another anyway )

If it did have a "wobble-butted" crank - you would definitely feel it.

I know how it feels to be in that spot, and mine has an even more abusive history than yours or most others do, good luck!

 

[azblackbart]

If you don't feel like fixing the car sent me an email and maybe we can do a deal on the car. i'm in Tucson,send me an email if you want to get rid of it.

 

[Darkwriter77]

I appreciate the many speedy replies. I'm gonna have to put some serious paper to pen today and figure if I can really afford to finish this project (not just the tranny issues, but everything else), or if I'm gonna have to bail on it and pick up something cheap/basic like a box-body Crown Vic. Got school coming up in the spring, and I can't be spending my every free minute/dollar under the hood...

The list of stuff I need to make this driveline work right now stands at:
- Input shaft from hanlonmotorsports (or someplace comparable) - $130 plus shipping
- Steel bearing retainer - $40 (comes with a new seal?)
- New input shaft bearing - $12
- Aluminum driveshaft (since my steel one is buggered up) - $260
- New King Cobra clutch kit (if I can't save this one in time) - $175

So, something around $442 without a new kit or $617 with. Ugh. And I still have another $1,000 or so to go beyond that (tires, ball joints, full exhaust, alternator, starter). Ugh, again. Yup, gotta do some serious contemplating now... *le sigh*

 

[Darkwriter77]

There's a sinking feeling coming from my back pocket. I think it's the additional $1,000 in crap I just heaped onto my credit card...

I have but one thing left to order, and that's the all-important input shaft. Trouble is, do I have a 24-tooth or 23-tooth shaft? Two different part numbers, obviously, and about $40 difference between 'em. I'm thinkin' it's the 24, but I didn't keep my darned alignment tool on hand after the clutch swap so I could count the splines... (doh!)

 

[Darkwriter77]

Anybody? 23 or 24? Can't very well drop the tranny just to count splines...

 

[Darkwriter77]

Couple of random thoughts: Any chance that using Ultra Copper RTV instead of, say, Red High-Temp RTV could be contributing to the leak? The copper's rated up to 700* and for use with sealing surfaces in contact with oil, but I just figured there might be a chance that it doesn't go well between two aluminum surfaces or with ATF...?

Also, do the steel bearing retainers usually come with a new seal already pressed in, or do I need to order yet another one of those $9 bastitches?

 

[Darkwriter77]

Anyone? Please?