Input shaft shims always necessary?

[Darkwriter77]

Gearing up (no pun intended) for this Thursday to once again drop the tranny and fight the Leaky Input Shaft Seal War. This time, my list of weapons include:
- New Hanlon Motorsports input shaft (23-tooth)
- New input shaft bearing (Timken SET5 or an SKF brand BR5, if anyone needs the part #)
- New steel bearing retainer from Summit w/new seal
- New FRPP driveshaft, Dynomax Cat-back, and cat'ed UPR X-pipe (not really related, but going on at the same time)

Mmm-kayyy, so with the help of an 18" length of 1 1/4" galvanized pipe, a chunk of 2x4 wood, and and the trusty BFH (5-pound mini sledge), I've driven the shiny new bearing onto the shiny new input shaft. Ahhh, what a beaut' she is.

Now, here's where it gets a little iffy for me. When I yanked off the aluminum OEM input bearing retainer before to replace the seal, the bearing race literally just fell right out into my hand when I turned the retainer upside down, along with the thin little shim that was behind it. The new bearing that I've got (which directly corresponds to the old bearing race's numbers) doesn't exactly just drop right into the new bearing retainer - it fits, but it looks like I might have to gently tap it in with the trusty ol' block of wood.

With that in mind, and knowing it'll be an absolute turd to get back out, I wanna be sure about this whole shim business: DO I or do I NOT need to install this shim with the new bearing? I've read previously that guys who've tried to re-use their shims with the new steel bearing retainer found that the whole thing would bind up when you try to re-install it, like the shim makes it too tight. Is the shim not necessary with the steel bearing retainer, maybe due to different dimensions or because the previous setup was serviced and the shim installed to compensate for slack? (Maybe the tranny was rebuilt sometime long ago in the past?)

I've gotta be totally sure about this, because the 'Stang is my only transportation, and I can't have the thing sitting up on jack stands for days at a time while I go get the bearing race pulled back off and the old shim installed/uninstalled (park managers will have a hissy fit). The T-5 service manual PDF that I have actually says, during the input shaft install chapter, "install bearing cup but do not install shims at this time" and then directs you to torque the retainer down to 15 ft. lbs. like that's the end of it. (There IS a section on preload measuring/adjustment way after that, but ... c'mon, as if I've got a friggin' machine shop in my driveway...)

For anyone who's got the steel retainer, did you re-use your shim(s), or did you just poke it in as-is without it?

Oh, and ... this may be silly, but is Ultra-Copper RTV okay for sealing the retainer? ... or instead, maybe High-Temp Red RTV? Many thanks.

 

[Rick 91GT]

You need to mock it up and check the end play. You may need more shims, you may need less. Changing retainers usually changes the shims...

You want .000" to +.002" Preload, the closer to .000" the better. Copper will work, although I prefer the Red or Black.

 

[jrichker]

Tapered roller bearings require a minimum of slack to perform properly. Too much slack and the bearing will beat itself to death. A slight preload of .001"-.002" is recommended in most cases.

See http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/onlineorder/product.asp to download a FREE service manual for T5 or Tremec 3550
You will need the Adobe Acrobat viewer which is also a free download – http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

See paragrah 6-9 for assembly instructions for the countershaft and shims

 

[Darkwriter77]

That's the same service manual I'm working off of (thanks for the link, btw). Problem is, I don't have any way of measuring anything that itsy-bitsy, and I don't have a pile of various-sized shims laying around, either. Supposing I re-use the current shim and it doesn't bind up when I have it all back together ... if it's a tad loose, will it be readily noticable and wreak havoc on the tranny instantly, or are we talking over a period of months, or what?

Anyone who's replaced their bearing retainer with a steel one, did you re-use your shim and bearing race, or have it professionally aligned, or what? I can't very well just poke the OEM retainer back in, as I'm pretty convinced that's half of my leaky input shaft seal problem (brand new seal's already leaking, less than 200 miles on it), so the steel unit's gotta go in, one way or another...

 

[darthcual]

Well, Well, Well, Darkwriter we meet again my old nemesis I put teh Summit steel bearing retainer on my tranny when i redid the flywheel and clutch and i used the shim and bearing together. Mine pressed right in with a little force from my fingers and seated perfectly. I didnt know it could be this complicated. Anywho, I put it back together and have had zero problems with it thus far.

DC

 

[jpctln]

I've done it on two different T-5's. All I did was shim the retainer so the input shaft has a slight bit of drag on it. This means that the shaft does not turn freely or loose but is not difficult to turn either.

As for the shim...I re-used the same shim and race for both of them. For the first one though, I had to sand the shim down until it was almost paper-thin. The second one dropped in without any adjustments necessary. Just make sure you mock it up and torque the bolts to 15lbs to make sure it's right before you seal it.

Correct me if I'm totally wrong though.

 

[Rick 91GT]

You need to use a dial indictor to measure the endplay, only true way to tell.

EVERY retainer I have done has been different.

 

[Darkwriter77]

Whelp, being that I don't have a dial indicator handy, I guess I'll have to chance it with the existing shim.

Just a thought I had today, should the bearing race just fall out/drop in from the retainer without any tapping or other mechanical pursuasion? I went ahead and rented a bearing race/seal driver set from my store today, just in case, since it feels like the new race is a tad bit of a snug fit going into the steel retainer, whereas (when I last dropped the tranny a week or so ago) the old race literally just fell out of the retainer into my hand along with the shim.

Could it be that, since the input shaft is likely warped (and thus wobbling out my new seal), it's also wallowed out the bearing race and maybe even the flimsy aluminum retainer, thus the resultant slack allows such a loose fit? The new bearing race is the right part, I'm sure, as it's clear that it will fit - it'll go in about halfway without even applying pressure - but it appears that it might require a bit of "encouragement."

Many thanks for the replies. Y'all have been livesavers.

 

[jrichker]

Dial indicator...
You will also need a magnetic base and dial indicator to measure the endplay ($20-$40). http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=1306&PARTPG=NNLMK32

You will need the Adobe Acrobat viewer which is also a free download – http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

 

[Euphoric306]

didnt read thread but you need shims to reduce both endplay and wobbling of the input shaft side to side, if you feel more drag than just bearing grease then too much shim, if you input shaft moves at all from side to side not enough shim. they keep the shaft from moving axially in and out, but also press the thrust bearing up against the surface on the output shaft, and you dont want any play that will prematurely wear that thrust bearing and its surfaces

 

[Darkwriter77]

I kinda wonder now if maybe that isn't the whole cause of the leaky issue, now that you mention it: improper shimming. The shaft bearing might not be shimmed enough, allowing the shaft to wobble around in there and screw up the new seal. ARGHHH!! This probably means I've just bought a new input shaft for nothing! DOH!

Good to know the possible cause of it, nevertheless. Many, many thanks for the replies. I'm going to re-use the stock bearing shim and check it by hand to see if it feels more snug in there than the current setup; if there's some slop, I'm gonna try like heck to boogey on down to NAPA on foot (car's already up on jacks as I type this) and see if I can score a stack of shims and/or a dial indicator, and maybe manage to do it properly. Who knows ... my ghetto engineering just might do the trick. And if not, at least I won't be as tempted to just junk the tranny and start with another, since I'll be pretty sure it's the shimming issue that's causing the whole situation, in the first place.

Any chance that the strange whirring sound I've always heard only in 3rd and 5th gear is caused by this shimming stuff and/or a worn input shaft bearing?

 

[darthcual]

Thats a big possibility but i would think it would do it in all gears. As i stated above my bearing needed a little coaxing from my hand to get it in there and seated. Might use a little tranny fluid to help it along. Lates

 

[Darkwriter77]

WOO! It's together again. This time, it only took me SEVEN hours from start to finish (instead of the previous ten), but that's largely because I didn't have to pull the bellhousing, clutch, and flywheel, nor did I have to fight with a stupid stubborn pilot bearing for a solid hour.

First thing I did as soon as I had the tranny out was wiggle the input shaft. YE GODS! That thing was looser than a drunken blonde at a frat party on an episode of "Girls Gone Wild." By loose, I mean I could move the thing around in a full circle and have the splined edge of the shaft making contact with the inside of the retainer's nose. I dunno how I overlooked it before ... but then, I wasn't really looking for that to be the source of my troubles the first time around, either. That, and I often tend to overlook the obvious.

The old shaft was kind of stubborn coming out, had to do a lot of turning and wiggling to get things to line up into the "let go of me!" position. Upon yanking the shaft, my heart sank ... roller bearings everywhere! AAAAARRRGHH!! All ten or so of the little buggers fell out the end of the shaft, but none dropped into the casing, luckily, or I'd be pitching the whole T-5 into a river. Used a dab of bearing grease to make 'em stick into place and stand up while laying 'em into the new shaft (talk about brain surgery with needlenose pliers!), cleaned everything perfectly, poked it back in there, and turned my attention to the bearing retainer.

The OEM retainer is garbage, no doubt. The inside of the throwout bearing end is grooved DEEPLY and may have something to do with my gearshift being a bit stubborn sometimes about going into gear. Additionally, comparing the old bearing race to the new one, I could see/feel a ridge around the innermost edge where the bearing may have been loose enough to start causing problems. So, maybe it was the shaft killing the bearing, maybe the bearing wasn't shimmed in tight enough, or whatever; whatever the case, with the new shaft and bearing and retainer in place, everything's just as tight and snug as (insert crude reference of choice here). Just a bit of drag, but no binding. Ahhhh ... niiiiiiiice.

I used the red High-Temp RTV for sealing the retainer. I dunno, I guess that Copper stuff ain't as "Ultra" as I figured it to be. I was able to rub the stuff off with my fingertip with hardly any effort, so mayhaps a bit of my leak was due to my choice in RTV? ... and maybe not quite having the surface as squeaky-clean as I should've? (I hosed the puppy with brake cleaner this time.)

Oh, and on a totally unrelated side note, the UPR cat'ed X-pipe is a so-so fit. It's a bit more adjustable with the extra ball-n-socket flange for the driver's side, yes, but I still wound up with the heat shield of the cat on that side pressed snugly up against the tranny crossmember, no matter how much wiggling, adjusting, and cussing I gave it. Short of notching the crossmember or denting in the heat shield, I may just hafta live with it.

Haven't driven it yet ... but it moved on/off the ramps nicely enough to put on the tailpipes. The UPR cat'ed X-pipe with a Dynomax Super Turbo cat-back is Q-U-I-E-T ... but that's what I was going for, so no gripes just yet. I gained about 2" of ground clearance, too, from my ghetto setup. Yayyy!

Going for a test drive now. Posting results soon...

 

[Darkwriter77]

All's well thus far. No leaks (yet), and the driveline is a lot quieter and smoother. I still have a weird vibration from 45-50mph that is increased by adding throttle, but goes away above or below that speed. Previously thought that to either be the stock steel driveshaft and/or the wobbly input shaft, but now ... dunno.

Still need to tighten up the exhaust a bit, replace two front ball joints and tires, replace the mangled speedo cable (it's had a rough 240k+ mile life), and possibly replace the pinion bearing ... although, at this point, I think I'll just pay someone else to tinker with it. I'm pooped.