I actually called ARP and informed them that late model Ford's had metric threads for the clutch and they were very suprised. They said they MIGHT consider making a second kit for the late models. If you call them and order direct, you can get any bolt you need to your spec. They are very nice about special orders. It would be nice if they offered a kit tho =)
Installing a new Clutch. What should be
- Thread starter Steve69
- Start date
WHAT ? ARP didn't know that the newer Ford small block flywheels had metric threads ? THAT CAN'T BE !!!!Rusty67 said:
****, I've known that for years. 
I had to resort to using "inferior" grade 8's or 9's for the clutches in my V8 Ranger because of that fact. 
Ain't had one break either, torqued them to 45 ft/lbs too. After having my eyes opened to the fastener industry and some of its problems and the dubious practices of a number of the fastener manufacturers and suppliers, I have very serious doubts about the quality of fasteners when I don't know their source and I'm certainly not going to trust someone elses word for it. By that, I do not mean to insult you by inferring YOUR word, but ANYONE's word. If it weren't for the fact that I demand that my daily drivers first and foremost be safe and live under harsh racing conditions and provide factory-new reliability, I wouldn't care how the car was assembled. As I do demand that my car meet or exceed each of those criteria (and I'm not willing to trust my life and limb to someone elses decision, whether informed or not), I choose to be very careful of my decisions. That includes being very specific about my fastener choices and how they are installed.
Instead of just using decision making methods like, "it hasn't broken yet so it must be fine," I prefer to understand every aspect of something as dangerous as driving and repairing a car completely as possible before I jump into it. That includes fastener engineering and technology. The myriad of the threaded fastener designs available, alone, well exceed simply SAE or Metric grades and course or fine threads. Each of these fasteners is designed to be used for a specific purpose with a specific load and fatigue level in mind and meant to be installed in a specific manner with specific accompanying accessories such as locking components. I can't imagine that taking a corner at 100+ MPH will be very fun if an important component breaks loose because a poorly chosen and/or installed fastener gives up the ghost. Nor would I like to launch a car at nearly 5000 RPM and have the pressure plate or flywheel come free (or shatter) for the same reason. I really like my body parts attached just the way my Mother and Father made them. They may not be perfect, but they are a lot better than the aftermarket pieces available to replace them.
Ryan
Instead of just using decision making methods like, "it hasn't broken yet so it must be fine," I prefer to understand every aspect of something as dangerous as driving and repairing a car completely as possible before I jump into it. That includes fastener engineering and technology. The myriad of the threaded fastener designs available, alone, well exceed simply SAE or Metric grades and course or fine threads. Each of these fasteners is designed to be used for a specific purpose with a specific load and fatigue level in mind and meant to be installed in a specific manner with specific accompanying accessories such as locking components. I can't imagine that taking a corner at 100+ MPH will be very fun if an important component breaks loose because a poorly chosen and/or installed fastener gives up the ghost. Nor would I like to launch a car at nearly 5000 RPM and have the pressure plate or flywheel come free (or shatter) for the same reason. I really like my body parts attached just the way my Mother and Father made them. They may not be perfect, but they are a lot better than the aftermarket pieces available to replace them.
Ryan
D.Hearne said:WHAT ? ARP didn't know that the newer Ford small block flywheels had metric threads ? THAT CAN'T BE !!!!
Judging from your last post, it must take you forever to fix or repair something. You keep doing things your way, I'll do them mine. It doesn't take meticulousness in every aspect of this stuff to accomplish safe results. I tend to do things the right way the first time, I've learned this from past experiences, but it doesn't mean you can't do things the simple way in many cases. When it comes to bolts and fasteners, I shy away from the large chain stores as a source of supply, only if they're the only option, do I use their stuff ( like on nights and weekends) to get the job done, and if it can't wait.
Not really...that is unless the job requires abnormal procedures such as brake components left to rust themselves together and ball joints that are nearly falling out of the upper control arms...then there are the occasional 4 or 5-day brake and chassis jobs. *personal anecdote*
My procedures aren't much different than those used by the likes of the late Smokey Yunick, Carroll Smith or David Vizard. I've learned that careful, sometimes time consuming, procedures are the only ones that provide the necessary results for my own piece of mind as well as survival. That's the main reason why I prefer not to allow mechanics (professional or amateur, experienced or not) to touch my rides. Their decision making skills and criteria aren't what I would consider adequate for my cars and my life. Without a doubt I am a perfectionist, but a practical one. My methods and procedures must be, for one, necessary and, two, they must work for the situation. As far as needing to get something done, if it can't be done right, I just don't do it. My life and those I might take with me aren't worth doing an inferior job.
That said, I'm not saying that your experiences haven't been good and that you haven't made valid observations, but I do have experiences and knowledge (and have had the opportunity to learn from the experiences and knowledge of others that are much greater than my own) that are very different. Because of that, I generally choose to approach my cars in the way a race car engineer approaches designing and building a car rather than a mechanic repairing one.
I've also discovered, over time, that the more careful and precise I am with my cars, the more reliable they are, the less they cost me and the safer I am...especially considering my pentient for racking up the racing miles.
I'm glad your methods have served you and you haven't run into any problems with your approach, but I still stand by my statement that the correct bolts should be used in the correct application regardless of philosophies surrounding approaches to automotive repair.
Ryan
My procedures aren't much different than those used by the likes of the late Smokey Yunick, Carroll Smith or David Vizard. I've learned that careful, sometimes time consuming, procedures are the only ones that provide the necessary results for my own piece of mind as well as survival. That's the main reason why I prefer not to allow mechanics (professional or amateur, experienced or not) to touch my rides. Their decision making skills and criteria aren't what I would consider adequate for my cars and my life. Without a doubt I am a perfectionist, but a practical one. My methods and procedures must be, for one, necessary and, two, they must work for the situation. As far as needing to get something done, if it can't be done right, I just don't do it. My life and those I might take with me aren't worth doing an inferior job.
That said, I'm not saying that your experiences haven't been good and that you haven't made valid observations, but I do have experiences and knowledge (and have had the opportunity to learn from the experiences and knowledge of others that are much greater than my own) that are very different. Because of that, I generally choose to approach my cars in the way a race car engineer approaches designing and building a car rather than a mechanic repairing one.
I've also discovered, over time, that the more careful and precise I am with my cars, the more reliable they are, the less they cost me and the safer I am...especially considering my pentient for racking up the racing miles.
I'm glad your methods have served you and you haven't run into any problems with your approach, but I still stand by my statement that the correct bolts should be used in the correct application regardless of philosophies surrounding approaches to automotive repair.
Ryan
D.Hearne said:
You bet, not a problem.
Sorry it became a debate.
I would follow ARP's suggestion that should have been included with the bolts (in the past they have been on a small white piece of paper folded under the bolts on the card). If you have lost it, just give them a call.
Some bolts require special ARP torque and procedures while they recommend to just follow factory repair procedures with others.
While I don't have my factory '66 repair manual in front of me, checking around came up with specs on www.summitracing.com which says 35 ft/lbs for the pressure plate bolts. I would recommend doing a little research before torqing them down.
Make sure, however, that the bolts and the flywheel threads are cleaned of all oil before applying a locking compound as the standard Loctite red (271) for high vibration and even the standard blue (242) for low vibration are not oil resistant and the presence of the oil the bolts are coated in in the package will cause the compound not to harden completely (enough can keep it from hardening at all).
Ryan
Sorry it became a debate.
I would follow ARP's suggestion that should have been included with the bolts (in the past they have been on a small white piece of paper folded under the bolts on the card). If you have lost it, just give them a call.
Some bolts require special ARP torque and procedures while they recommend to just follow factory repair procedures with others.
While I don't have my factory '66 repair manual in front of me, checking around came up with specs on www.summitracing.com which says 35 ft/lbs for the pressure plate bolts. I would recommend doing a little research before torqing them down.
Make sure, however, that the bolts and the flywheel threads are cleaned of all oil before applying a locking compound as the standard Loctite red (271) for high vibration and even the standard blue (242) for low vibration are not oil resistant and the presence of the oil the bolts are coated in in the package will cause the compound not to harden completely (enough can keep it from hardening at all).
Ryan
Steve69 said:
I do know that the last time I installed ARP pressure plate and flywheel bolts, the instructions said specifically not to use oil or put a lubricant on the threads.
See the above EDITED post for the information I just found regarding the factory bolt specs. The information I found said 35 ft/lbs but I wouldn't trust it.
Ryan
See the above EDITED post for the information I just found regarding the factory bolt specs. The information I found said 35 ft/lbs but I wouldn't trust it.
Ryan
Steve69 said:
65ShelbyClone
Founding Member
hrspwrjunkie said:
B8? Isn't that a 1958 part number? I though you meant current Formula 1. AFAIK, Ford doesnt use anything(authentically) better than an SAE grade 8 or metric grade 10.8. I went looking through an aerospace fastener co's site and found exotic material bolts up to 260,000psi.
D.Hearne said:
I was about to say that too! They've been metric probably about as long as I've been alive. I hope it was only the phone rep that didn't know and not the whole company.....
Apparently metric pressureplate bolts are hard to find as q`uite a few 5.0 folks end up going to Ford to get that.....at ~$25-30 for 6!
When I called ARP the rep didn't know that the late model flywheel was metric thread. I believe the metric thread started in 85 or 86. It was when they went to the 10.5" clutch instead of the 10" clutch. They don't offer a "kit" for it but they will sell you the correct bolts.
SPS makes bolts up to 300,000 PSI, but that only matters if the joint you are bolting requires that kind of yield because if a normal bolt is not tightened to within (approximately) 60 or 80% of its UTS (Ultimate Tensile Strength), or just shy of the yield strength (the point where the metal will deform and no longer be able to elastically return to its original shape, about 75% of its yield is usually optimal) of the given material, it has very little holding power. Without the residual tension stress in the bolt providing a constant pressure on the threads, the only thing keeping the bolt from backing out is a little friction caused by the thread surfaces rubbing against one another. Also, the threads will not have locked together due to the interference fit that occurs when the male bolt threads are elongated when the bolt is stretched (the female threads also likewise compress to put a clamp on the male threads when they are stressed in the opposite direction as result of the tightening) and the bolt will loosen and shear off or just work its way out.
The B in the part number was a typo and should have been a D and yes, those bolts do use "Grade 8" material and it is plenty strong enough for what it does. The material doesn't have to be exotic to work, just be to spec. In this case, the design itself is exotic and puts less stress on the shank thus reducing the amount of yield strength needed to perform the task of retension.
Carroll Smith used the Ford place bolts in Hewland transaxles at least as late as 1990 as this was when he published his handbook on fasteners.
As far as cost of the factory Ford fasteners goes, Ford Racing sells them in a kit with the dowels and it sells for around $10-$15.
The B in the part number was a typo and should have been a D and yes, those bolts do use "Grade 8" material and it is plenty strong enough for what it does. The material doesn't have to be exotic to work, just be to spec. In this case, the design itself is exotic and puts less stress on the shank thus reducing the amount of yield strength needed to perform the task of retension.
Carroll Smith used the Ford place bolts in Hewland transaxles at least as late as 1990 as this was when he published his handbook on fasteners.
As far as cost of the factory Ford fasteners goes, Ford Racing sells them in a kit with the dowels and it sells for around $10-$15.
65ShelbyClone said:
Okay, I researched the factory Ford specs and this is as the torque specs were stated in an original '66 factory repair manual:
Flywheel Bolts: 75-85 ft/lbs
Pressure Plate Bolts: 23-28 ft/lbs
Bellhousing to Block Bolts: 40-50 ft/lbs
Clutch Pedal Free Play Adjustment Nut: 10-15 ft/lbs
Transmission to Bellhousing Bolts: 37-42 ft/lbs
Insulator to Transmission (rear mount): 30-42 ft/lbs
Insulator to Support (cross member): 25-35 ft/lbs
Support to Body: 20-30 ft/lbs
Flywheel Bolts: 75-85 ft/lbs
Pressure Plate Bolts: 23-28 ft/lbs
Bellhousing to Block Bolts: 40-50 ft/lbs
Clutch Pedal Free Play Adjustment Nut: 10-15 ft/lbs
Transmission to Bellhousing Bolts: 37-42 ft/lbs
Insulator to Transmission (rear mount): 30-42 ft/lbs
Insulator to Support (cross member): 25-35 ft/lbs
Support to Body: 20-30 ft/lbs
Steve69 said:
As far as any bolt that threads into an aluminum part, I personally am not going to exceed about 25 ft-lbs; even less for bolts in the 1/4" range and under. That includes the transmission cross-member, and the starter to bell housing bolts. I presently have stripped out threads in both areas on my kids' '65--all four of the applicable bolt holes--from following the factory specs. Maybe I will fall short of the theoretically optimum bolt stretch, but I'll use Loc-Tite and lock washers to make up for it. An aluminum female thread that's about to pull loose makes a very weak joint and is far weaker than a good solid female thread with a bolt that's stretched not quite far enough.
Another two cents is that your engineering only has to be adequate to the task at hand, plus a margin for the "100 year storm" scenario. Anything beyond that is obsessive and a squandering of resources. Get into a car with nothing but aviation-grade fasteners holding it together and every suspension and braking component blueprinted and magnafluxed and deburred and stress relieved and forged and hardened and the first intersection you drive through it's still a calculated risk that some cell phone yakking idiot or some drunk isn't going to run the stop sign and take you out.
Another two cents is that your engineering only has to be adequate to the task at hand, plus a margin for the "100 year storm" scenario. Anything beyond that is obsessive and a squandering of resources. Get into a car with nothing but aviation-grade fasteners holding it together and every suspension and braking component blueprinted and magnafluxed and deburred and stress relieved and forged and hardened and the first intersection you drive through it's still a calculated risk that some cell phone yakking idiot or some drunk isn't going to run the stop sign and take you out.
Reminds me of the story Rush Limbaugh told awhile back of the enviromental group that "rescued" a sea lion that had gotten soaked with crude oil. They spent hundreds of dollars and several hours ( or was it weeks)
cleaning and nursing it back to health. Then, they had a big media event to release it back into the wild. It was only minutes after it's release............when it was swimming around........... fat dumb and happy in the ocean........and all the sudden........... a Killer Whale....... exploded out of the water and swallowed it whole.
Similar threads
