Is there such a thing as a "Factory Freak"?

p5.0ny said:

Factory freaks are real. Just not anymore. Back in the muscle car days, lots of substitutions took place when there might have been 6-7 different engine options for a specific vehicle line. It was not uncommon to "upgrade" a car if the required engine didn't meet the car on the assembly and an "upgraded" engine was there. Examples I know of higher horse power ratings than then build sheet called for. 10 vs 12 bolts for Chevys were commonly switched to 12 bolts. With less options, the factory freaks are gone.

Click to expand...

That is totally true!! For instance,one motor had 3 different options.Like the 396,in 1969,It came with 325 hp,,or you could order 350 hp,,or you could order the L-78 option which came with 375HP.Im sure the people on the assembly line use to slip a "Hot" cam in the slower cars every now and then.Also there is a famous story about a GTO back in 1965.They tested a 1965 GTO against a 1965 Ferrari-GTO.(thats where Pontiac got the name) Anyway the test was pretty good and the performance #'s were pretty close.It wasnt till years later(The truth actually came out in the late 80's,,Jim Wagner told the truth) when Jim Wagner fessed up about the test.The night before the test,at the dealer,they took out the 389 Tri-Power (thats what motor they came with) and slipped in a 421 Super Duty.The motor that came in super stocker Catilinas,it had more HP and torque!!But to look at them you couldnt tell the difference.And Im sure stuff like this happened all the time in the 50's,60's,and 70's.Today it would be tougher,but Im sure it still goes on.

A factory 1969 Chevrolet Kingswood Estate wagon with a solid-lifter, L72 427 is a factory freak. One such car was built and currently resides in the Floyd Garrett Muscle Car Museum in Sevierville, TN. A run of the mill Mustang that just happens to be a half-second quicker with a good driver is not. I don't normally like to get in these conversations, but a lot of scuttlebutt gets passed around about "police interceptor engines" and the like in Mustangs and that is simply incorrect. You have a quick car. Be proud.

Your car could very well be a "factory freak", or "It was built on a Monday"...lol. But I'm thinking it might just be that you're a better driver than he is. One way to tell is you drive his car and let him drive yours and race again. If he beats you by the same margin that you beat him before, then your car is plan ole faster than his, but if you beat him then you're just a better driver than he is. A while back my cousin was racing one of his friends. They both had Cobras, my cousin had a 94 Cobra and his friend had a 95 Cobra. They both had off road h-pipes, flowmaters and 3.73 gears. My cousin beat his friend. Then they switch cars and my cousin beat him again. The verdict....my cousin was the better driver.

JuggalotuStang said:

Yeah, a factory freak, I was told that my car was one, because a buddy of mine has a mildly modded 88LX w/ gears, and we went for a little ride, i went ahead and floored it, so did he, he said he couldn't keep up. My car is mostly stock, w/ just an H-pipe, headers, AC delete, and Smog Pump Delete... maybe I just know how to drive my car lol

Click to expand...

Honestly speaking? No, just slow drivers that dont know how to tune.

p5.0ny said:

Factory freaks are real. Just not anymore. Back in the muscle car days, lots of substitutions took place when there might have been 6-7 different engine options for a specific vehicle line. It was not uncommon to "upgrade" a car if the required engine didn't meet the car on the assembly and an "upgraded" engine was there. Examples I know of higher horse power ratings than then build sheet called for. 10 vs 12 bolts for Chevys were commonly switched to 12 bolts. With less options, the factory freaks are gone.

Click to expand...

How is that a factory freak if it gets an upgraded engine and it is printed in the VIN (Vehicle Identification Number)? There were lots of different engine options...almost like today?

Wow....this thread is BS....no offense to anyone, but here's how this just IS.....

Unless you're talking about '60s-70s "engine options".....you're never going to get anything like a "factory freak" that makes unreal amounts of power over other typical engines, BUT, you will commonly find some very 'SLIGHT' differences..such as:

I think the main thing that could create an engine that runs harder than another of the same kind is the cam itself. It's REALLY common to find stock cams that are way out of spec with what the stock specs say they're supposed to be. I've had friends test stock cams and even found considerable lope in them. Aside from that, you guys have to understand that these engines roll off of an assymbly line that are built the exact same way, except for minor mechanical imperfections and slight differences.

These days....and again...i dont mean any offense to anyone, but there's always some kid who just bought his first V8 Mustang and thinks it's a "factory freak", because it's sooooo fast, but i think a lot of this is just people who are not used to strong running cars, and they often end up with a Mustang or whatever that just runs good. Maybe it's got one of these off spec cams or maybe it's stood up to time and wear a little better than some other guy's motor, but the fact is that these engines are nearly exactly the same, and the only things that can make them run differently from one another in pure stock form, are mechanical defects and just plain being in overall better condition than the next.

Guys, i think we're all just in love with this idea of finding a "freak" car that has more to offer than the next guy's. A lot of this all just stems from better drivers vs. amature drivers, and engines that are well maintained and taken care of, maybe they have an off spec cam and someone advanced the timing and runs some Turbo Blue in it....the point is, these motors all came from the same parts bins, and even with an off spec cam, i dont think you're ever going to see more than 10hp differences on any 2 stock motors, unless one is just beat up and tired and runs crappier than the next.

Oh yea....that's also not to mention, unless you're the original owner of a car, how the heck can you know what someone's done to the car? You could have as much as a slight port job on the heads, bigger valves, who knows.

So what your saying is you dont believe in factory freaks If we had someone who spent 30 years on an essembly line,maybe he could shed some light on the subject.Until then these are just opinions.But this thread should be in the talk section,and not in Tech.

When the foxes were NEW, it was accepted that some were just freaks.
I'm talking a carlength or two from a roll that was it. We proved that similar cars would pull harder then others regardless of who was driving which car. It was probably due more to proper break in at the time than anything else. Some guys beat the cars new others were babied, either way identical new cars were not all the same speed wise.

As far as finding 1 of these freaks now, it aint gonna happen. Too many miles gone bye, too little of a difference to notice now.

ninjacoupe said:

When the foxes were NEW, it was accepted that some were just freaks.
I'm talking a carlength or two from a roll that was it. We proved that similar cars would pull harder then others regardless of who was driving which car. It was probably due more to proper break in at the time than anything else. Some guys beat the cars new others were babied, either way identical new cars were not all the same speed wise.

As far as finding 1 of these freaks now, it aint gonna happen. Too many miles gone bye, too little of a difference to notice now.

Click to expand...

That carlength or two is probably do to the fact that either the driver was better than the other or the weight was different or the gears were different...

An engine assembly line is to controlled to allow an "intolerance" in the physics of an engine to leak out enough to warrant a "factory freak"...

The driver becomes a big part in the "factory freak" mystery...

5spd GT said:

That carlength or two is probably do to the fact that either the driver was better than the other or the weight was different or the gears were different...

An engine assembly line is to controlled to allow an "intolerance" in the physics of an engine to leak out enough to warrant a "factory freak"...

The driver becomes a big part in the "factory freak" mystery...

Click to expand...

Don't want to argue but we would change drivers. I'm just stating what was happening back then. Some cars did pull harder. We literrally played with hundreds of these things, many brand new.
The truth is some cars were faster than others regardless of who was driving.
I remember switching driveres with perfect strangers and going from a roll on purpose.
We also used to count the t-5's that we would watch blow up next to us racing in a night. I would witness 3 sometimes 4 cars blow trannies next to us.
Sometimes it would be us.

Dude I'm talking about brand new foxes same options switching drivers doing all different types of rollons, same gearing gas ect.
SOME FOXES WERE SLIGHTLY FASTER THAN OTHERS. I was there.

ninjacoupe said:

Don't want to argue but we would change drivers. I'm just stating what was happening back then. Some cars did pull harder. We literrally played with hundreds of these things, many brand new.
The truth is some cars were faster than others regardless of who was driving.
I remember switching driveres with perfect strangers and going from a roll on purpose.
We also used to count the t-5's that we would watch blow up next to us racing in a night. I would witness 3 sometimes 4 cars blow trannies next to us.
Sometimes it would be us.

Dude I'm talking about brand new foxes same options switching drivers doing all different types of rollons, same gearing gas ect.
SOME FOXES WERE SLIGHTLY FASTER THAN OTHERS. I was there.

Click to expand...

So you raced cars that were exactly like (that would mean they woul have to have the EXACT same options, driver weight, driver talent, gears, same break-in, etc...)...I don't think there are any cars in the world like that...so again that would account (since there are none like that) for the one being faster than the other...

How did ya'll blow trannies on stock 5.0's?

I have to agree, if one beat the other its more based around weight, and other small factors.

And as far as blowing up T5s, I dont know what that has to do with it, but for those of you blowing them up on stock cars, time to learn how to shift. My car as well as my dads have been raced for 3-5 years now on stock original T5s and neither has any issues. Im talking 6000 RPM power shifts and with his car all on low 12 second passes! His also has close to 90,000 miles, and the only thing changed was the clutch and shifter!

He said when they were brand new.He didnt say what year.I consider the start of 5.0's years to be 85.(the first year of the roller cam) Im sure there are a few differences in 5spd's between 85 and 93.By 93 they got alot of the bugs out.(Im guessing.) The same holds true for the motors.My father is a retired cop,but was working when the 5.0's starting to become cop cars.He said they were quick,but they were the biggest piece of crap because they always broke down.Same thing,by 93 and all the changes(cams,computers,maf,ect.,,,) took place and it was a more reliable car by 93.As far as break ins,its not rocket science,or theres not a million ways to break in your motor,its either broke in properly or its done improperly!

Hey ninjacoupe,where was this,at work?Sounds like you worked at a dealer.Which one?

ninjacoupe said:

When the foxes were NEW, it was accepted that some were just freaks.
I'm talking a carlength or two from a roll that was it. We proved that similar cars would pull harder then others regardless of who was driving which car. It was probably due more to proper break in at the time than anything else. Some guys beat the cars new others were babied, either way identical new cars were not all the same speed wise.

As far as finding 1 of these freaks now, it aint gonna happen. Too many miles gone bye, too little of a difference to notice now.

Click to expand...

My original responce stated it was probably due to the differences in the break in. it stated we changed drivers but anyway.....

Yes we had 2 identical Brand new lx 5.0 hatches, same options in our group. These guys got them within a couple of weeks on one another.One WAS faster everytime did not matter who was driving them.
As far as the t-5's braking, I'm letting you know what it was like when these cars were NEW. Stock shifters back then.

Please read my first responce again

willys1 said:

Hey ninjacoupe,where was this,at work?Sounds like you worked at a dealer.Which one?

Click to expand...

No I was still in high school. Mainly 87,88,89's

We would race down In deer park ave. and levittown

Over in levittown it would be 3 lanes across, 3 foxes racing at a time with 6 lined up behind .
Deer Park Ave was a whole different story.

The 91's were still on the lots. This is when we figurer out all those little tricks.
Nobady told us, we learned on our own. By the time the 93's were out evreyone had Pullies Gears and Exhaust. A 351w in a notch was feared by all.

Come to think about it it still is HAHA
.

Breaking a brand new T-5 would have to purposeful whether it have a stock shifter or not...

There are many different ways to breaking in an engine...which would account for the differences in performance...

I really doubt the two lx's were of equal trim...there is probably little things here and there to make the weight difference...

Also were the cars bought with EXACTLY 0 miles on the odometer...that is VERY unlikely...could have beat on before...

The factory freak legend is a myth...

5spd GT said:

Breaking a brand new T-5 would have to purposeful whether it have a stock shifter or not...

There are many different ways to breaking in an engine...which would account for the differences in performance...

I really doubt the two lx's were of equal trim...there is probably little things here and there to make the weight difference...

Also were the cars bought with EXACTLY 0 miles on the odometer...that is VERY unlikely...could have beat on before...

The factory freak legend is a myth...

Click to expand...

You really doubt the LX's were of equal trim,he says they were,he was there,you were not!! Thats your "opinion" thats its a legend.I and there are a few others that believe it to be true.

5spd GT said:

Breaking a brand new T-5 would have to purposeful whether it have a stock shifter or not...

Click to expand...

Just remembering how it was

5spd GT said:

There are many different ways to breaking in an engine...which would account for the differences in performance...

Click to expand...

My original point was that this was probably the only diff.

5spd GT said:

I really doubt the two lx's were of equal trim...there is probably little things here and there to make the weight difference...

Click to expand...

If I remember these cars were early graduation presents and we put them two the test repeatedly

5spd GT said:

Also were the cars bought with EXACTLY 0 miles on the odometer...that is VERY unlikely...could have beat on before...

Click to expand...

within a couple 100 of eachother

5spd GT said:

The factory freak legend is a myth...

Click to expand...

Matter of perspective, I would not consider a few carlengths a Freak but the differences were there.

ninjacoupe,your dyno #'s are impressive,do you have any 1/4 mile times?