Kicking a dead horse > Removing quad shocks

jeremy canter · Aug 20, 2010

3ponyshow said:
I don't understand that at all, unless it possibly had something to do with the track prep. Where were you, Island?

YEA ILAND RACEWAY/ Hacketstown, NJ

jeremy canter · Aug 20, 2010

I have MM lower arms and double ajustable upper > both have spirical bushing's > and soon to have my MM subframes on///
I don't know why the #ll this car won't run lower time's > I'm lauching very consistantlly. shift at 7g but only getting the first 3 gears some time's 4th

sneaky98gt · Aug 20, 2010

You said you cut a 1.9 60'. What was the 1/4 ET and trap on that run?

And what was the 60' on the 13.6 @ 105+ run?

A 1.9 short time at 105+ should be good for high 12s. I still say that you either need more practice launching (or shifting, depending on the answers to above questions), or it is a very real possibility that the track sucks. Good track prep does make a world of difference.

N8Dogg98 · Aug 20, 2010

trombonedemon said:
Trinity states what I am trying to say better.
http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/813162-what-loose-torque-steer.html

The only way to correctly center the rear end is to get a PHB. Quad shocks do not locate the rear end

ninjastang125 · Aug 20, 2010

Jeremy canter from my experience racing you need to ditch the 17 in radials and go to a 15 in radial or slick to get better et's. And if your shifting that thing a 7k that makes a good arguement for 4.56s......

3ponyshow · Aug 21, 2010

sneaky98gt said:
or it is a very real possibility that the track sucks.

Yep, that's why I asked. It's very real. While island is fun to run on, it's not the track to go to for numbers because it runs uphill!. Go to Englishtown or Lebanon Valley.

Kornnut · Aug 21, 2010

jeremy canter said:
I forgot to tell you I was running 12-15 PSI of air in my drag radials> and even heating the heck out of them didn't help with my traction.

You maybe heating them up to much.

trombonedemon · Aug 21, 2010

N8Dogg98 said:
The only way to correctly center the rear end is to get a PHB. Quad shocks do not locate the rear end

The quadshocks are attached the frame and the Lower control arms, if that rear moves the LCA's will move and so will the Quads, but the situation is lessened if you have quad shocks. I'm not really talking about straight line shooting; although the shocks will still help. Removing the Quad shock is taking some of the stiffness out of your rearend. Your screwing the equilibriem when your taking the shocks off, just a matter time when your gonna rip your torque boxes out, the LCA's I mean, or you can weld some reinforced battle boxes with High tensile weld. What ever, not really worth arguing about, your vehicle, I'm pretty sure its in top shape anyway.
Op is your car lowered any?

jeremy canter · Aug 21, 2010

3ponyshow said:
Yep, that's why I asked. It's very real. While island is fun to run on, it's not the track to go to for numbers because it runs uphill!. Go to Englishtown or Lebanon Valley.

there too far from me to play at .

Kornnut said:
You maybe heating them up to much.

Is that even possible ?

trombonedemon said:
The quadshocks are attached the frame and the Lower control arms, if that rear moves the LCA's will move and so will the Quads, but the situation is lessened if you have quad shocks. I'm not really talking about straight line shooting; although the shocks will still help. Removing the Quad shock is taking some of the stiffness out of your rearend. Your screwing the equilibriem when your taking the shocks off, just a matter time when your gonna rip your torque boxes out, the LCA's I mean, or you can weld some reinforced battle boxes with High tensile weld. What ever, not really worth arguing about, your vehicle, I'm pretty sure its in top shape anyway.
Op is your car lowered any?

yes the car is dropped 1 3/4

ninjastang125 said:
Jeremy canter from my experience racing you need to ditch the 17 in radials and go to a 15 in radial or slick to get better et's. And if your shifting that thing a 7k that makes a good arguement for 4.56s......

I'm not going to go that steep but I'd like to put in 4:10's soon

sneaky98gt said:
You said you cut a 1.9 60'. What was the 1/4 ET and trap on that run?

my best is a 1.9 at 105 and that was a 13.6/ 13.5 ish ( my time slip's are at work in my tool box> I was showing them off )

And what was the 60' on the 13.6 @ 105+ run?

A 1.9 short time at 105+ should be good for high 12s. I still say that you either need more practice launching (or shifting, depending on the answers to above questions), or it is a very real possibility that the track sucks. Good track prep does make a world of difference.

the the lauch isn't bad when the sun is out and the track is warm > but when the sun goes down my lauch start's to suck . after talking to a friend that was at the track last time i went he said something that had me thinking >he said it sounded like my clutch was slipping when I shifted > like it hung before it gripped and the motor went under load again>
I have a alum flywheel and ram stage 2 clutch but havn't put them in yet sound's like i might do that soon.

bullitt 736 · Aug 21, 2010

trombonedemon said:
Trinity states what I am trying to say better.
http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/813162-what-loose-torque-steer.html

The reason this guy's car was loose (in the link) is because his bushings were shot. The quads (or lack thereof) had nothing to do with it except for the fact that he had junk control arms.

If you're going drag race race with stickies and run that kind of horsepower you need some good ones.

For the OP, you probably should think about welding your torque boxes. Not necessarily required with DR's but good insurance for sure with slicks.

Full length subframe connectors will help chassis flex as well.

Good luck.

Here's some good reading from Maximum Motorsports:

Stop wheel hop
Ford's solution for reducing wheel hop was to add the quad shocks (the two horizontal shocks mounted behind the rear axle). They reduce wheel hop by damping axle wind-up. Axle windup is caused by two independent deflections: the control arms, and the rubber bushings.

MM's rear lower control arms eliminate the primary causes of axle wind-up. Our tubular steel arms are over three times stiffer than the stock control arm, and our unique bushing designs eliminate the deflection of the soft stock rubber bushings.

Stop Torque-box Damage
Torque-box damage is often blamed on "too much power". Wrong! It is usually the result of metal fatigue caused by a poor rear lower control arm bushing design.

It is commonly believed that as long as the rear lower control arm bushings do not deflect, they must be okay. Not true. Any up and down suspension movement causes the rear lower control arms to not only rotate on their pivots, but also to change their angularity, relative to their chassis-end and axle-end mounts. If the rear lower control arm bushings are not designed to accommodate this change in angularity, the suspension will tend to bind up and not move freely. That hurts traction, and can damage the chassis-side mounts (the lower torque-boxes) for the rear lower control arms. While the repeated binding of suspension movement may not harm the steel of the axle-housing bracket because it is quite thick, the thin sheet metal of the chassis mounts will fatigue and eventually fail.

Installing rear lower control arms that allow proper articulation of the suspension will prevent torque box damage. The only proper rear lower control arm bushing for a drag race car is a spherical bearing, not a solid (pivot-only) style of bushing. Surprisingly to many, this is also the best design for a road-race car.

Drag Racing-It's the Launch
Lowering your 60-foot times will lead to a lower ET. Improving the launch by a tenth of a second usually results in a 2/10 lower ET. In the search for a better launch, racers often attempt to improve bite off the line by installing better rear lower control arms. Just what constitutes a "better" rear lower control arm? While replacing the stamped-steel OEM units with stiffer tubular arms is an improvement, the real key to a better rear lower control arm is in the bushings.

Standing Starts and RLCA Bushings
Urethane rear lower control arm bushings should not be used for any type of drag racing. The statement "any type of drag racing" includes any hard standing start launch, whether it is at the drag strip or a stoplight on the street. Hard launches, when the engine RPMs are increased significantly and the clutch is released abruptly, put an enormous sudden shock load on the control arm bushings. Urethane bushings will suffer a shortened lifespan from this type of use. The higher the power level, the stickier the tires, and the better everything else that helps a car launch more quickly is, the greater the stress on urethane bushings, and the shorter their lifespan. If hard launches are part of your lifestyle, then you want the MM Extreme-Duty Rear Lower Control Arms.

Mustang Rear Lower Control Arm Tech: MM Extreme Duty series control arms
Extreme Duty control arms
• Direct replacement for the stock lower control arm.
• Tubular steel construction is over three times stiffer than the stock control arm.
• Large 2" diameter round steel tube provides maximum stiffness.
• Engineered design prevents binding of suspension movement.
• Large Teflon-lined spherical bearings at each end allows freedom of motion for both pivoting and angularity, preventing unwanted deflection while still allowing the angularity required for proper articulation.
• Spherical bearings prevent damage to the torque-boxes by easily allowing the suspension to move as needed.
• Greatly reduces axle wind-up.
• Moderate change in NVH.
• Swaybar mounting brackets are 3/16" thick steel, shaped to increase their strength, and are welded on both sides.
• Powdercoated black
• Spring perch location on non-adjustable arms does not change ride height.
• Available with adjustable height spring perch

The MM Extreme Duty Rear Lower Control Arms should be used in any high horsepower application, or any form of racing. Large Teflon-lined spherical bearings at both ends of these control arms completely eliminate deflection, yet allow the articulation required to prevent torque-box damage. This reduces axle windup, and allows the car to react to throttle input more quickly. These are the only control arms available that have spherical bearings at both ends, and yet do not require a coil-over conversion kit. MM's Engineering Team solved the problem of keeping the control arm upright and aligned with the chassis, when the springs are left in the stock location, by designing urethane alignment bushings for the chassis-side spherical bearing.

Rear lower control arms with spherical bearings at each end:
• Precisely locate the rear axle
• Do not deflect fore-and-aft
• Reduce axle wind-up
• Reduce wheel hop
• Do not cause suspension binding
• Stop torque-box damage
• Improve traction!

Maximum Motorsports will tell you you that you don't need the quads with good controls arms. Their write-up sure comfims the message.

As far as uppers, they recommend the FRPP uppers. They don't like the real stiff bushings.

For the OP, you probably should think about welding your torque boxes. Not necessarily required with DR's but good insurance for sure with slicks.

Full length subframe connectors will help chassis flex as well.

Good luck.

bullitt 736 · Aug 21, 2010

trombonedemon said:
The quadshocks are attached the frame and the Lower control arms,

The frame and axle bracket. Not the LCA

trombonedemon · Aug 21, 2010

bullitt 736 said:
The frame and axle bracket. Not the LCA

Yea, I just realize that when I saw some pics. I installed mine myself about a year ago. I wonder why bushings cost roughly more then half of a set of good LCA's. Anyone find LCA bushings that are spherical.

3ponyshow · Aug 22, 2010

jeremy canter said:
there too far from me to play at .

I lived in Monroe. They're not too far. Especially if you wnt to give your car a fair shot.

blackfang · Aug 22, 2010

I removed mine when I installed my MM extreme duty LCA's with the spherical bushings. I had no issues with daily driving and under hard launches. MM, Trinity, etc says you can do it if you have a good quality LCA with a good bushing setup. It is NOT recommended if you have the weaker stock LCA and stock bushing.

Also I hope 13.6@105 was on motor. I would be nervous if it was on nitrous.

Mustang5L5 · Aug 22, 2010

trombonedemon said:
The quadshocks are attached the frame and the Lower control arms, if that rear moves the LCA's will move and so will the Quads, but the situation is lessened if you have quad shocks. I'm not really talking about straight line shooting; although the shocks will still help. Removing the Quad shock is taking some of the stiffness out of your rearend. Your screwing the equilibriem when your taking the shocks off, just a matter time when your gonna rip your torque boxes out, the LCA's I mean, or you can weld some reinforced battle boxes with High tensile weld. What ever, not really worth arguing about, your vehicle, I'm pretty sure its in top shape anyway.
Op is your car lowered any?

It's more of a dampener only, and less of helping to stiffen up the rear axle. It does nothing to locate to the rear axle. What happens during wheel hop is that each wheel gains and loses traction at different times. Of the right wheel grabs, and the left spins, the rear end tends to twist slightly with the right pushing towards the front of the car. When it hitsnthe maximum limit of travel, the when loses traction and "hops" backwards. When this happens on both sides, you get wheel hop.

The quads work by softening the front and back movement of the axle so the wheel doesn't hop back and forth by adding a resistance mechanism.

Aftermarket control arms have stiffer bushings and sometimes eliminate wheel hop, but this is not always the case. Usually the range of articulation is shorter, but if you have arms with poly bushings they can still move.

There is nothing to gain by removing the quad shocks...except three pounds or so. If you can get away with no running them, then more power to you, but if you don't need to remove them, then don't.

I have high dollar max motorsports lcas, new steeda/ ford boxed uppers, new shocks and still had wheel hope without quads. Installed some new quads and wheel hope went away completely.

My take is that removing quads is a myth. Unless you put solid spherical bushings in your lcas (which I wouldn't do in fear of destroying the torque boxes) you will always back back and forth movement of the axle.

tank_567 · Aug 23, 2010

Mustang5L5 said:
My take is that removing quads is a myth.

+1

Flghtmstr1 · Aug 24, 2010

I would also suggest leaving them in. I think the info in my sig speaks for itself.

bhuff30 · Aug 25, 2010

Launching on the nitto 555R with a stick is tricky. The tire has a firm sidewall, so you can not shock load it. You need to be gentle at first, then 'pour' the power on to maintain traction. Soon as you break the traction on those tires, you are done. So it really is all about clutch modulation. Get off the line softly, then smoothly, but quickly put the rest of the power down.

As someone else mentioned already, I get 1.7 60' times on my 245-45-17 nitto 555R's, with an open differential even! As I said already, the trick is to launch soft, then quickly pour the power on. These tires are EXTREMELY difficult to break loose from a roll unless you shock load them. I found about 17-19psi works best for me. Going lower didn't help traction at all.

Anyway, the rest of my suspension isn't anything special... V8 springs in the rear (stiffer), 4cyl springs in the front (softer), and I removed the front sway bar. The suspension arms and bushings are all STOCK. No sub frame connectors, no rear mount battery, and nothing else special.

So back to your setup.... You need to figure out how to put big torque to the ground after a soft launch. 4.30 gears could help you there. Another good option is nitrous. I suggest you launch softly, at 1500-1800 so you don't spin the tires at all, then let the nitrous turn on at 2500 and carry you along. The nitrous will make awesome torque down there, and it will still be reasonably safe because you the rpms will climb very quickly.

Leave the quad shocks on. Get a pan hard bar for handling only because it won't help your launch. You may have better luck with a MT or other DR that has a softer sidewall. They are more forgiving about shock loads.

Stumbaugh · Aug 26, 2010

ran260gt said:
I still have quads because I'm running the stock control arms and from what I've always heard you will get wheel hope unless you have aftermarket control arms, so If you have aftermarket C/Rs take the quads off and see how you do !!

THIS!

This post is right on the button. I made the mistake of removing mine and throwing the bolt's away and now I can't find out what size the bolts are to put them back on. Anyways, I removed mine and my car wheel hops SO bad. I cannot powershift my car because the second the tires start to spin it's wheel hoping.

Mustang5L5 · Aug 26, 2010

Stumbaugh said:
THIS!

This post is right on the button.

Not exactly. Even with aftermarket CA's, you can still have wheel hop. Putting LCA's doesn't automatically mean you can ditch the quads. I have Max Motorsports LCA's and new Upper CA's with all new bushings and had wheel hop without the quads. I put them back on and problem solved.

Personally, i don't know why you would want to remove them. They can only help you. If you are really strung out on ditching 3 pounds of weight from your car to run 0.0001 second faster...then i don't know what to tell you.

Kicking a dead horse > Removing quad shocks

jeremy canter

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sneaky98gt

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That is…until I whipped out my Bissell

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