Long tubes

BennyBlown2v · Oct 12, 2007

propellerhead said:
Go find the difference in gain between short and long tubes. I'm guessing it's under 10 hp. Once you find that number, subtract the added cost of longtubes. Then subtract the added pain of having your collectors really low to the ground. Then subtract the cost of a new midpipe. then subtract the headache of removing the longtubes to get to other parts of your car. Then, ask yourself if it's still worth it.

I agree and then disagree. Sure Shorties are easier to work around, have great clearance from accessories and ground...but they surely don't make 10hp less than lt's... Lt's have clearly shown a 20-25hp in NA applications, and 20-30hp in FI applications - shorties however have been shown time and time again to have 0-8hp gains on otherwise stock NA cars, and only at certain boost/flow rates come close to the gains of long tube headers. I know for a fact I gained 29rwhp from my LT's on equal boost on stock manifolds (so say 19hp over shorties as a generous estimate), and I had same o/r mid pipe with both setups.

I must concede that LT's are a bitch to work with/around...and that with shorty headers you would make "enough" hp in a high hp application to not warrant the extra cost/headaches of working around them.

propellerhead · Oct 12, 2007

Everyone has their own claims of what their headers did for them. All different cars. Different mods. Different tracks. Different dynos. The guys with shorties say the shorties gave them great numbers. The guys with longtubes say their headers gave them great numbers. Can the claims be compared fairly? How many here actually have numbers from both headers back to back?

These guys do.
ST vs LT

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/29618_short_long_tube_headers_test/index.html

In the end, everyone will believe the numbers they want to believe. Will those numbers be worth the effort of the installation? We can't come up with an answer for everyone. The effort to install headers differs from person to person. The reason for installing headers differs from person to person.

For me personally, the effort to install either are about the same in my view. What decides it for me is that shorties cost less and I do not have to get a new midpipe. That, in my book, is $300-400 I don't have to spend for an extra 10 hp above 5000 RPM. I'm not planning to do headers to shave off some time off my ET. My car is a daily driver that has been seeing less and less of the drag strip and more and more of an autocross track. Top end hp is not as important to me as it might be to others. An extra $300-400 for 10 hp is not worth it in my book. For me, doing the research, shopping for the parts and installing the mod is where it counts. I'm a hobbyist. Not a die hard drag racer.

blackfang · Oct 13, 2007

Let me go buy a 5.0 then and test that being I have a 4V. No wonder the hp was low. Also I wonder if that has any difference if it was a 2v/4v verse a 5.0 pushrod

04sonicblueGT · Oct 13, 2007

with long tubes, will the point at which the exhuast turns to be parrellel with the groud be the same or lower? right now i actually hit right at the turning point sometimes. even though i go as slow as possible over bumbs it still rubs sometimes. i actually have a dent on my driver side tube.

98GTfromGA · Oct 13, 2007

get the damn longtubes and don't look back

1low03gt · Oct 13, 2007

propellerhead said:
Everyone has their own claims of what their headers did for them. All different cars. Different mods. Different tracks. Different dynos. The guys with shorties say the shorties gave them great numbers. The guys with longtubes say their headers gave them great numbers. Can the claims be compared fairly? How many here actually have numbers from both headers back to back?

These guys do.
ST vs LT

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/29618_short_long_tube_headers_test/index.html

In the end, everyone will believe the numbers they want to believe. Will those numbers be worth the effort of the installation? We can't come up with an answer for everyone. The effort to install headers differs from person to person. The reason for installing headers differs from person to person.

For me personally, the effort to install either are about the same in my view. What decides it for me is that shorties cost less and I do not have to get a new midpipe. That, in my book, is $300-400 I don't have to spend for an extra 10 hp above 5000 RPM. I'm not planning to do headers to shave off some time off my ET. My car is a daily driver that has been seeing less and less of the drag strip and more and more of an autocross track. Top end hp is not as important to me as it might be to others. An extra $300-400 for 10 hp is not worth it in my book. For me, doing the research, shopping for the parts and installing the mod is where it counts. I'm a hobbyist. Not a die hard drag racer.

This is where i feel the same! Plain and simple.And by judging by the chart you posted,in the range where most of our stangs run,there really isn't a huge difference at all between the two,not enough to cough up that extra coin inmy books.But now,if i was a weekend drag racer doing it for coin,and compatition,then yeah,long tubes it would be as they really seem to help out the top end rpm's!
It seems though that the shorties seem to help out the torque where it matters on the street for a daily driver.

blackfang · Oct 13, 2007

That chart is from a 302 motor not a modular. Sorry but the results are not the same. You will gain very little hp with shorties but you will gain a lot with LT's throughout the powerband.

It is bad when a Header manufacturer won't make shorties because they even state the gains are too minimal to even waste their time making them. This is the first site that has people claiming shorties are better than LT's, yet every other site is different.

Stang|ess · Oct 13, 2007

propellerhead said:
Go find the difference in gain between short and long tubes. I'm guessing it's under 10 hp. Once you find that number, subtract the added cost of longtubes. Then subtract the added pain of having your collectors really low to the ground. Then subtract the cost of a new midpipe. then subtract the headache of removing the longtubes to get to other parts of your car. Then, ask yourself if it's still worth it.

my collectors don't touch any speedbumps, but my xpipe meets them regularly.

don't have to remove them to work on my tranny, or anything else for that matter.

sold my old midpipe, so no real loss there. and if you have slp, or bassanis 5 piece x pipe, you won't need to buy a new one.

an extra 10-15 horses for about $200. better than buying a tb and plenum .

tank_567 · Oct 15, 2007

blackfang said:
That chart is from a 302 motor not a modular. Sorry but the results are not the same. You will gain very little hp with shorties but you will gain a lot with LT's throughout the powerband.

It is bad when a Header manufacturer won't make shorties because they even state the gains are too minimal to even waste their time making them. This is the first site that has people claiming shorties are better than LT's, yet every other site is different.

+1

propellerhead · Oct 15, 2007

blackfang said:
This is the first site that has people claiming shorties are better than LT's, yet every other site is different.

This statement is vague, at best. Better in what terms?

blackfang · Oct 15, 2007

propellerhead said:
This statement is vague, at best. Better in what terms?

Go on Modular Powerhouse forums and tell them that shorty headers are better than LT's and that the gains are under 10 hp between the two and see what you get. Try posting that on the Corral, Modular Fords, Modular Depot, etc. LT's are very well known and recommended to be the better deal when it comes to hp gains with modulars and cost effective wise over shorty's. You gain very little with shorty's, but LT's add quite a bit more power throughout the powerband.

I have tried both shorty and LT's and LT's were always better in producing gains and power I felt. Basing your idea from a magazine using data from a 302 engine isn't the same. Those motors are different and the results are too.

propellerhead · Oct 15, 2007

If you actually read my post, you'd see I was not saying short tubes are better than longtubes for everyone. I said short tubes are better FOR ME because I don't want to pay the higher costs for the extra hp that long tubes will give. Longtubes typically cost more than short tubes and I would have to get a new midpipe if I got longtubes. I would pay less for short tubes and I would not have to get a new midpipe. In the end, the cost involved in getting longtubes will outweigh their benefit FOR ME. For what I want to do with my car, for what it's purposes are, short tubes are better FOR ME. It's all about cost FOR ME. Not about peak hp numbers. My choices do not represent the views of this website.

PS. I put more faith in a single back to back test on a 302 than scattered claims from people across different message boards with a 281, 2v, 4v, or whatever, with different mods, who put one type of headers on and never did back to back tests on the same car, same dyno, same weather. As I said earlier, people will believe what they want to believe.

blackfang · Oct 15, 2007

propellerhead said:
If you actually read my post, you'd see I was not saying short tubes are better than longtubes for everyone. I said short tubes are better FOR ME because I don't want to pay the higher costs for the extra hp that long tubes will give. Longtubes typically cost more than short tubes and I would have to get a new midpipe if I got longtubes. I would pay less for short tubes and I would not have to get a new midpipe. In the end, the cost involved in getting longtubes will outweigh their benefit FOR ME. For what I want to do with my car, for what it's purposes are, short tubes are better FOR ME. It's all about cost FOR ME. Not about peak hp numbers. My choices do not represent the views of this website.

PS. I put more faith in a single back to back test on a 302 than scattered claims from people across different message boards with a 281, 2v, 4v, or whatever, with different mods, who put one type of headers on and never did back to back tests on the same car, same dyno, same weather. As I said earlier, people will believe what they want to believe.

In the past we have debated until we were blue in the face about the Predator vs SCT. You were all for the Diablo then. Now you are SCT.

I have been around since 98-99 and I have seen a ton of good and a lot of bad advice. I am not saying yours is or isn't. However, posting up a dyno sheet of comparing the little gains of LT's over shorty's from a 302 motor basing your claims regarding a modular will lead people down the wrong road. LT's are certainly worth the money and the gains to be had over shorty's (peak and non peak) is also big and worth it. If you want to talk 302's then go to that forum, this is about Modulars. You commented on that there is a little difference in gains. It has been quoted, so I don't need to dig it up. If you or someone want's to spend money on wasted mods, then so be it. That is their problem and that's fine, settle with the wasted $$ and no hp gains. I am done debating this.

propellerhead · Oct 15, 2007

blackfang said:
... LT's are certainly worth the money...

This is certainly not universal and that is my point. Again, the money involved in getting LT or ST are different. The gains are surely different. When it comes to cost vs gain, everyone has a different opinion. The choices you or anyone made are not universally applicable to everyone with a Mustang. Just because LT will give you more power doesn't mean it's the best cost vs gain choice for everyone. Quit being so argumentative. This is not about you or me being right or wrong. I'm just pointing out that cost is a major concern in deciding on mods.

DCjuggalo · Oct 15, 2007

i will NEVER believe any dyno charts 5.0 and MMFF magazines have done

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