Looking to build stang that will run 10's

Build a 351/408 stroker and it will run 10's all day long. I see this set up at the track run that all day long. Bore the 351 .30 over buy a stroker kit with good heads & intake. You will be in the 10's
Brandon

Did you read the article in last month's MM&FF? It had a high compression 356 (351 bored over) that was running high 10's. Stroke a 351 to 393 or 408 and unless you screw something up terribly (I.E. weak cylinder heads, slippery tires, sloppy suspension), there's no reason you couldn't run 10s on a Windsor block. That car had no power adders either. Spray it or Boost it and you'll be much faster than that.

Ive seen many H/c/i 302s with a 150 shot go mid to high 10s. With the proper set up a 302 can go tens, no need for a 429/460.

JamesB88 said:

Ive seen many H/c/i 302s with a 150 shot go mid to high 10s. With the proper set up a 302 can go tens, no need for a 429/460.

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Absolutely true!

However, building a 408ci sbf will be easier for the beginner to average builder/assembler. The cubic inches alone is a nice equalizer for the less experienced. Another point to consider is the load and rpm limiting roller block in the 5.0 which the 5.7 does not share.

Keep in mind, the car with the most power does not always cross first. Think acceleration!

347HO - You sure are stuck on this acceleration thing. I see it everywhere you post.

Answer me this:

Take two cars, A and B.

Same driver, same track, weight, conditions, suspension, same elevation, track prep, wind conditions, and the many different variables at the track that can chance, etc.

Now picture them having the same average HP/TQ in their powerband, say, 4,500-6,500 RPM. Do you believe that one will "accelerate" faster than the other? If yes, what is your reasoning behind this and how?

To the OP, the more cubes, the less RPM needed.

5speed,
Think of it this way;
The amount of power output does not suggest the amount of time it takes to reach a certain shaft rpm.
By manipulating (reducing) rotating mass, you will decrease the amount of time it took to reach a target rpm.
By manipulating the charge fuel and air into the combustion chamber using camshaft events you have the ability to greatly increase the engines acceleration.
This is a basic explanation, and is in depth over on *******.
I am one of few who promote acceleration as well as power.

A 302 is going to be a time bomb with enough power for low 10s. It's been done many times, but it's not very safe. There's stock short-block cars on the turbo forums running 9.60s-9.70s. Seeing how you have a 351 laying around, I think that would be a smarter build. I would do a stock style rebuild on the bottom end with good forged pistons, and maybe some good rods. Some out of the box Twised Wedges or similar and an F cam. Is it going to be carbed or efi? Then put together some type of turbo kit and you'll be all set. Except for the couple thousand dollar tranny, rearend, fuel system, chassis/suspension mods, cage, and the million other things required to run a low 10 sec car. Good luck.

347HO said:

5speed,
Think of it this way;
The amount of power output does not suggest the amount of time it takes to reach a certain shaft rpm.
By manipulating (reducing) rotating mass, you will decrease the amount of time it took to reach a target rpm.
By manipulating the charge fuel and air into the combustion chamber using camshaft events you have the ability to greatly increase the engines acceleration.
This is a basic explanation, and is in depth over on *******.
I am one of few who promote acceleration as well as power.

Click to expand...

i am going to jump in on this.

we all know power output is DIRECTLY related to how much fuel you can feed the engine.

the way i see it, the lighter the rotating assembly,LESS fuel is required to make the same HP number as a similar engine with a heavier rotating assembly.

because its takes less power to turn lighter parts.

take 2 theoretical engines,
same heads, intake cam etc... exactly the same engine EXCEPT one engine has a heavier rotating engine.

light rotating assembly engine = engine A
heavy rotating assembly engine = engine B

take these two engines on a dyno and tinker and tune them both to achieve exactly 500 HP

engine A is using less fuel to make the 500hp. the lighter rotating mass means the engine has an easier time turning itself.

engine B requires more fuel, its heavier rotating assembly means it takes more power to turn itself.
an actually since engine B is using more fuel, its making a bigger bang in the cylinder and actually making more power but its being soaked up by the rotating assembly. so the USEABLE horsepower as measure by the dyno is the same as engine A using less fuel.

now you can take the fuel amount that your dumping into engine B to make the 500 hp, and dump that same amount of fuel into engine A and make more power and exceed the 500 hp.

the same thinking applies to the drag strip, a lighter car takes less power to run the same speed as a heavier car.

now i am not going to get into torque numbers, those can vary alot. horsepower is defined as work over time and an engine making more horsepower is doing MORE work, horsepower is DIRECTLY proportional to top speed, capable e/ts and MPH etc etc. sure an engine making less power can run a faster E/T than a car making more power, a bunch of variables come into play there, traction, wind etc etc etc.

but the end all is... assuming the EXACT same weight in two cars. the car making more horsepower is generally going to trap more MPH and ultimatly mean it is CAPABLE of lower E/Ts, now whether that happens is a matter of traction and if the car is setup for it. the engine making more HP is doing more work over time and is going to be able to move the from point A (starting line) to point B (finish line) faster.

if it doenst happen in the 1/4 mile, then stretch the race out, ultimatly the engine making more HP to the rear wheels is going to pull ahead REGARDLESS of engine rotating assembly weight (we are still assuming cars weigh the same, there are alot of variables at the drag strip so its hard to make solid assumptions on stuff.

sure a lighter rotating assembly may rev up faster and get into the RPM band faster and better. but the outcome of a race is still determined by the power output and how much fuel you can burn in the engine.

i COULD SEE an engine much much lighter (to the extreme) that may accelerate so fast it can out run the higher HP engine starting out, but like i stated before, stretch the race out to say 1 mile, the higher HP engine will pull ahead, assuming the same weight still.

the main point in am trying to make is in two identical cars, the the engine making more RWHP is going to be doing more work and be able to achieve a higher top speed FOR SURE. and i can see a lighter rotating assembly engine being able to bring the RPMs up so fast it could be making a higher power number a little bit faster and be putting more power to the wheels at a given instance in time than the other engine. but ultimatly the engine making the high HP number to the wheels is going to be in front, even if you have to stretch the race out super long to sift out all the variables, that all dependant on HOW much lighter the rotating assembly is in one of the engine and other variables.

now also note that the i was assuming the same weight, so the engine with the ligher rotating assembly would have to have some dead weight added to the car to make it the same as the other car with the heavier engine. but if you start out with the cars being the exact weight and the total weight is different by the difference in engine weight, then we get into the discussion of power/weight ratios etc etc etc

there is so much to think about lol

this is my 2 cents and i am no expert this is how i see things and seems to make the most sense to me.

I was thinking a little more simple than that, but you have some good points in there for sure.

If cars are the same, hp is the same;
You shift at 6800rpm and you cross at 7400rpm... let's assume there is no tire slip.
The engine which accelerates quicker will trap first. This has not so much to do with trap speed... purely ET.

Thinking of it this way;
The distance covered to 6800rpm and between shifts is the same... get it?

347HO said:

I was thinking a little more simple than that, but you have some good points in there for sure.

If cars are the same, hp is the same;
You shift at 6800rpm and you cross at 7400rpm... let's assume there is no tire slip.
The engine which accelerates quicker will trap first. This has not so much to do with trap speed... purely ET.

Thinking of it this way;
The distance covered to 6800rpm and between shifts is the same... get it?

Click to expand...

i see what you mean, but i am not sure if the differences would really be too much. i mean how often do two cars come to the lanes that are exactly the same, and there are far too many variables to do an accurate test. its almost impossible IMO to get two pefectly identical runs from 2 cars at the same time. i think all the real world variables are enough to offset the differences of rotating assembly weights.

Foxfan88 said:

... i think all the real world variables are enough to offset the differences of rotating assembly weights.

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At our level... we can race and be competative against more cars if we build our engines to accelerate quicker, not just around power.
You're/we're not going to win every race. All I'm saying is, don't look under the hood for the answer why you/we lost.

super8 said:

... so i want to try to make this work right, but not kill me me costs " and i know already that it isnt a cheap hobbie" o and im planning on running this one with a carb

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If you put 289/302 parts on a 351/408/428/460, you'll get 289/302 power.

Another quote from Jay Allen who got it from who knows where... but it applies;

"Good and Fast ain't cheap.
Fast and cheap ain't good.
Cheap and good ain't fast."

do not use those heads! just hold out and buy some good aluminum heads. Heads is what makes the car. I would go the 408 route its simple and does not reqiure a whole lot of tuning. And if you want more power you can always add nitrous. But i would stay away from turbos unless you want to spend alot of money and alot of time on tuning.

Both good points from foxfan and 347HO.

I have looked into it a little. My conclusion is that it is not something "at our level" that we really need to consider. We are talking very slight changes, and something we would not notice. I have to agree that there is something to it, but it is not significant in the real world "at our level."

There are guys that do not preach "acceleration" and do great. There are guys that "preach" acceleration and do great.

Carry on...

if there is one thing i have learned is that all cars are different. i have seen some screamers of cars and you look at their engine and its like "you ran how fast?"

then you see some cars with some super nice parts and see them run and wonder why they arent going faster.

IMO when modifying a car its ALOT more than just bolting on the good stuff and having the car be fast. there is tuning to be done and driving style adjustment etc and pretty much alot of variables that can affect the outcome.

i've been in pretty much stock 5.0 stangs thats seemed to run super fast.
one was just a bolt on 5.0 with like 3.55 gears, wasnt maybe a 14 sec car but the guy could drive it great and on the street it felt like it was going super fast.
then i have been in some cars and they didnt seem as fast, even though should have been.

Do not use gt-40 heads. Thats old technology.
This is very simple.
Bore a 351w.
Buy a set of aluminum heads with 2.02's
Compression in the range 9-10 to 1.
Victor jr. intake
750 holley
410 gear.

I have done this set up with two mustangs now but with a 306.
Both cars ran mid 11's.
The 351 should have no problem running high 10's.

Put a shot of 150 on it and your done.

stang387 said:

Do not use gt-40 heads. Thats old technology.
This is very simple.
Bore a 351w.
Buy a set of aluminum heads with 2.02's
Compression in the range 9-10 to 1.
Victor jr. intake
750 holley
410 gear.

I have done this set up with two mustangs now but with a 306.
Both cars ran mid 11's.
The 351 should have no problem running high 10's.

Put a shot of 150 on it and your done.

Click to expand...

You are posting "old technology"
This is very simple

Buy a set of aluminum heads with 185's
Compression in the range 10-11 to 1.
Burn E85 fuel
trick flow intake
65lbs injectors
8lbs twin turbo setup
stock gear

now your power curve is smooth "if your tune is good"

enyawix said:

You are posting "old technology"
This is very simple

Buy a set of aluminum heads with 185's
Compression in the range 10-11 to 1.
Burn E85 fuel
trick flow intake
65lbs injectors
8lbs twin turbo setup
stock gear

now your power curve is smooth "if your tune is good"

Click to expand...

Make sure you have an E-85 pump near-by.

I would do a much bigger head than a 185cc for something like that. I would also look into a aftermarket block, and something more than a "trickflow intake."