LTs vs. Mid-Length

stng · Mar 4, 2006

Here is my feeling on headers, every performance car I have ever owned I have put them on and they always result in really noticable gains. They also result in complicating almost any kind of engine work eg starter replacements, tranny work ect... Not to mention the increased liklihood of exhaust leaks, which in turn means more maintenance. That being said, you need to take that into consideration when deciding, how much is the extra power worth to you? To me its worth it, because the gains are significant enough to warrant the increased headaches. If I had it to do all over again I wouldnt have gone with the BBK's. I mean they have been really good to me as far as headers go (No leaks yet) but you do have to unbolt the passenger side to drop the tranny, which in turn makes a 4-5 hour job into an all day job. If I was to do again I would either go with the edelbrocks like billfisher mentioned as he definately knows his $hit, or get one of the brands that allows for clearance when dropping the tranny. I have never had shorties or mid length so I can give you any educated input only what I have read...

billfisher · Mar 4, 2006

heres the thing with collectors.

the merge angle and final Dia tune the vacuum. a 2.5" collector with 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" is probably best for HP. we get into adding "X" pipes or "H" pipes without knowing why or how they work. either the "X" or "H" adds collector area. all they do is make the collector 'seem' bigger. that adds torque. so if 2.5" is best for HP then why 3" or 3.5" ? it depends on velocity and volume of exhaust gasses. a 3" collector on our engines adds torque, which a 2.5" doesn't perform as well, but if you add an "X" pipe you get the collector area of a 3". so what if you tune the runner length of a 3" collector for the same point where the velocity ~ to a 2.5" ? you get the hp of 2.5" without scavenging level of 2.5" , but you get more torque. so then what if you have a collector that merges 2.5" and then expands back to 3" ? you get a header that get both max vacuum(pulses) and torque. the question of how far to go is always the issue. you guys are shooting for 300+ rw, so there is plenty of gas flow for 3" and 1 3/4" primaries as long as they step. the key to going maximum is to custom fit collectors and 3" extensions to get all of the torque back. you guys can even go with 1 3/4" primaries if the collectors are tuned right. edelbrock has slip on collectors for that purpose.

fitment: i don't know how they fit, but a "torch wrench" is guaranteed to fix it. forget fitment,going conservative and all else if you want the magic 350+ rw out of a 4.6 2v. there are cams,headers,and intakes already available to max it out. 350+ is definitely max.

the edelbrocks will get your combo max power. i can't say how much, to quantify your combo is impossible. i laugh at the adds that tell you Hp gains, as it never works out exactly. no loss of torque, and in fact more low end than you thought possible with a 4.6 with the edelbrocks. and all the HP.

and that was the short answer.

helty · Mar 4, 2006

billfisher said:
and that was the short answer.

haha, thanks bill. I'll keep the Edelbrocks as a viable option Price isnt too bad either.

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 4, 2006

As far as horsepower differences between LT's and mid-length headers, from what I understand, there's next to none. I remember reading an old Super Ford article a while back comparing the two of them on both 5.0's and 4.6's and with our displacement levels, as long as the primary tubes were at least 27" in length, maximum scavenging was achieved.

Kooks and Bassani headers are mid-length but are some of the best in the business and will match horsepower and torque numbers with any long-tube on the market. I’d be more concerned about picking the proper diameter over splitting hairs over the difference between mid-length and long-tubes.

helty · Mar 4, 2006

I think Kooks for the Mustang 2V are LT's. Actually, I know they are (they may be available in mid-length, but I havent heard/seen of them)

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 4, 2006

I've got a set of their mid-lengths on my Cougar.

I'm pretty sure they sell them in both configurations for Mustangs.

helty · Mar 4, 2006

^^

Hence the reason I said "Mustang" 2V I remember you saying you had Kooks Mid-Lengths on your

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 4, 2006

Yeah, but you missed my caption underneath, I am pretty sure they come in both configurations for Mustangs. Actually....they are custom headers, so I imagine they will make them any length you would like.

billfisher · Mar 4, 2006

mid lengths are a good compromise to fitment and power. im sorry the t-bird is so bad for that. i don't have the time or the car to try anything with birds, but maybe some day. i feel challenged to try it.

hey 101, can you run headers through the wheel well and then under the car? is there any alternative routing nobody has tried? if i listened to the experts, i would drive a civic not a stang. i know th mn-12 is a superior chasis, but is there anywhere that weight can be removed, to include making a "K" member? (altering more like it) i kinda wish i had one to experiment with.

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 5, 2006

billfisher said:
hey 101, can you run headers through the wheel well and then under the car? is there any alternative routing nobody has tried? if i listened to the experts, i would drive a civic not a stang. i know th mn-12 is a superior chasis, but is there anywhere that weight can be removed, to include making a "K" member? (altering more like it) i kinda wish i had one to experiment with.

Well bill, as you can see, the Mid-length Kooks are a tight squeeze in the MN12, but they will fit.

I installed mine along with the engine, much like the guy has done in this pic....

But a lot of people have opted to drop the K-memeber in order to install them from underneath. It does save a lot of hassel.

I wouldn't necessarily consider the MN12 a "superior chassis" all around. It's better balanced, but still a little springing. This is mainly due to its length though. It's true that the MN12 is a much tighter handling car than a Fox or a Fox4. Especially when you consider the major weight difference between the two cars, but for drag racing, it's pretty tough to beat the Fox's. There are a few custom tubular K-members available for them MN12's to lighten them up in the nose a bit. Mike Siska on tccoa has one and his car is set up strictly for drag racing and even with it's portly weight, he still managed a 10.5@130+mph.

helty · Mar 5, 2006

GB, did kooks include gaskets for where the headers bolt to the mid-pipe? I have this waiting for the "other" pieces and was curious about how two flat metal surfaces will create a seal (sarcasm).

View attachment 484865

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 5, 2006

helty said:
GB, did kooks include gaskets for where the headers bolt to the mid-pipe? I have this waiting for the "other" pieces and was curious about how two flat metal surfaces will create a seal (sarcasm).

View attachment 484862

Well, the gasket wasn't included, but I bought it with the headers at supercoupeperformance. It's basically a blow through proof copper "O" ring.

This is what came with my kit, but I'm sure you can buy the gasket separately....

helty · Mar 5, 2006

Thanks GB

billfisher · Mar 5, 2006

that clearance is tough. those headers do look like they get the job done. i knew fox(x) has a lot of room, but i just assumed ford gave other chasis's some space. they really didn't think out the space issue when they designed it. looks like a 4.6 barely fits. are you guys stroking the 4.6? you guys must be gearing the hell out of it? it doesn't leave a lot of room for innovation. i guess i have been babied by the last two cars. fox,fox4.

although i think i still like the fox notchback the best. my secong stang was an 83 or 84 (can't remember) with a little power. now there is an import beater. 2500lbs stripped. the 80 i had weighed 2700 stripped with a 302. 1600lbs front 1100lbs rear. no driver. even these fox4's have weight issues. we consider 3000lbs light. 2500 is light to me, they just look like crap. (80s)

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 5, 2006

billfisher said:
looks like a 4.6 barely fits. are you guys stroking the 4.6? you guys must be gearing the hell out of it? it doesn't leave a lot of room for innovation.

There are a couple of all motor guys on the site, but the ones that wan't to make any real power with these cars are doing it with nitrous or a blower. There are a couple of kits that are designated specifically for the MN12 cars, like the Allen I've got, but most are pretty easily able to addapt any of the '96-'98 Mustang kits to their engines as well, since they're essentially the same mill. There are guys running Vortech, FRPP, Allen and even one KB on the site.

...That tends to make up the bottom end torque necessary to get these big behemouths moving.

03GTconv · Mar 5, 2006

stng said:
Here is my feeling on headers, every performance car I have ever owned I have put them on and they always result in really noticable gains. They also result in complicating almost any kind of engine work eg starter replacements, tranny work ect... Not to mention the increased liklihood of exhaust leaks, which in turn means more maintenance. That being said, you need to take that into consideration when deciding, how much is the extra power worth to you? To me its worth it, because the gains are significant enough to warrant the increased headaches. If I had it to do all over again I wouldnt have gone with the BBK's. I mean they have been really good to me as far as headers go (No leaks yet) but you do have to unbolt the passenger side to drop the tranny, which in turn makes a 4-5 hour job into an all day job. If I was to do again I would either go with the edelbrocks like billfisher mentioned as he definately knows his $hit, or get one of the brands that allows for clearance when dropping the tranny. I have never had shorties or mid length so I can give you any educated input only what I have read...

Me and my buddy just installed my BBK LTs 3 weeks ago, we raised the engine about 2inches, removed the starter and K member. it took 8 hrs...wouldnt trade it for anything. After 2 weeks of the install shes really opening up and i can really feel the power.

ian7654 · Mar 5, 2006

Malevolyn said:
Shut up. My broken Cobra is still so much cooler than your fake Cobra. So there.

hey i'm taking th badges off mr. my-girlfriend-drives-me-around

it's hard to think about getting new headers when i have no money. i guess i'd go with bassani tubes to match my x-pipe though. here's a question, is ceramic coating with the extra few hundred dollars? i know it lasts longer than chrome, but i've heard that it doesn't last much longer. does it help with corrosion resistance that much?

Malevolyn · Mar 5, 2006

ian7654 said:
hey i'm taking th badges off mr. my-girlfriend-drives-me-around

Well mine will be a classic sooner, and I have -39,000 miles over you. HA! And sometimes I drive her car instead. You shut up and start answering your phone.

01Steeda · Mar 5, 2006

ian7654 said:
hey i'm taking th badges off mr. my-girlfriend-drives-me-around

it's hard to think about getting new headers when i have no money. i guess i'd go with bassani tubes to match my x-pipe though. here's a question, is ceramic coating with the extra few hundred dollars? i know it lasts longer than chrome, but i've heard that it doesn't last much longer. does it help with corrosion resistance that much?

I would assume ceramic coating helps alot, but to me I dont see the point.. I cant even see my LT's from under the hood.

damacman · Mar 7, 2006

The bassanis on mine were good for 4 tenths when it was n/a. Fairly easy to install, but time consuming. I just unbolted the motor mounts and jacked the motor up one side at a time. Still, things were very tight.

You will have to remove the collectors to get the tranny out - rent a slide hammer. I've done this twice now, once to replace the stock clutch, and just last week to replace a broken pivot ball (arrgh . . ). And the sound of the bassani front to back set up is to die for.

LTs vs. Mid-Length

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