Machine shop costs/ extreme broken bolt situation ->

jaymac

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Feb 18, 2004

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Apr 4, 2006

#1

• Apr 4, 2006

• #1

Here's the synopsis:
I broke a water pump bolt off in the block during the winter, and finally got around to trying to fix it yesterday. It was broken off flush inside the block.
First I drilled into the bolt and put in an easy out, heated the block, went to twist, and the easy-out broke off INSIDE the bolt, INSIDE the block.
In hindsight, I made a couple mistakes. I'd never used EZ-outs before, and probably didn't educate myself enough. Most likely, I didn't drill in deep enough, and secondly, I probably used too small of an EZ out. I used the one recommended for bolts 5/32-7/32, and as most of you know, water pump bolts are 5/16. My only feasible defense is that my buddy, who will remain un-named, and whose EZ outs they were, handed me the EZ out and recommended nothing to the contrary....
OH well.
After that broke off, I went and bought titanium bits to try to drill through the EZout/bolt, which I've been told is alomost next to impossible. The titanium bits did little more than make a dent in it, didn't grab any metal at all.
SO, a friend of mine is getting his hand on some carbide bits for me today, which he said "if anything can drill through the EZout, it will be carbide. If not: machine shop time."
So, worse comes to worst, and the carbide doesn't get the job done, which for some reason I don't think it will, what do you guys estimate a job like this might run me at a machine shop?
I really don't want to have to pull the whole block, but ya have to do what ya have to do, right?
Would you guys have any other alternatives or tricks I might be able to try if the carbide doesn't work, or is a machine shop in the near future?
Thanks to all,
Jeremy

 

jrichker

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#2

• Apr 4, 2006

• #2

The carbide bit will do the job, but they are very brittle. You need to make sure that as you drill, you don't move sideways and exert any bending force on the bit, or it wll break. If the carbide bit breaks, I have no clue on what to do to get it out.

 

jaymac

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#3

• Apr 4, 2006

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So I should not exert any real pressure on the drill to "push" the bit into the bolt/EZout? Just hold it there w/ enough pressure to keep it in place?
Guess I'll probably end up learing-by-doing...
My buddy just called from work and said he ot his hands on a couple carbide bits and will have some more overnighted in case I break all these during the learing process
He said his machine shop guys are fairly confident that I will be able to drill though it being that I used such a small EZout and it's not that deep.
He just reminded me to go very slowly and use plenty of cutting fluid, and once it grabs it should actually start to back the EZ out by itself, and then I "could" be on EZ street (pun intended) after that, but you know the story...nothing ever turns out the way it should.
We'll see!!!

 

jrichker

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#4

• Apr 4, 2006

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jaymac said:

So I should not exert any real pressure on the drill to "push" the bit into the bolt/EZout? Just hold it there w/ enough pressure to keep it in place?
Guess I'll probably end up learing-by-doing...

Click to expand...

Steady pressure is the best thing. Just don't get off on an angle and then try to straighten up. That puts a bending force on the drill bit that can cause it to break.

 

Roland69

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#5

• Apr 4, 2006

• #5

try welding another bolt to the broken one and turn it out like a normal bolt.

 

jaymac

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#6

• Apr 4, 2006

• #6

I had thought of and been advised by someone to try that, but where the car is stranded, we don't have the welding equipment to do that... I might be able to arrange for my brother-in-law to bring his portable welder up there, but I don't see how you could do it if the bolt is INSIDE the block. There's nothing protruding to weld on to. It would be next to impossible to weld onto the bolt and not the nut, but I'm not speaking from experience, just speculating...

 

jaymac

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#7

• Apr 4, 2006

• #7

My buddy brought by the carbide bits today~ I gotta go pick up some 3-in-1 oil and give it a shot~ He's overnighting some more unless I break these in the experimental process
Anybody have any more hints/tips, feel free to chime in!
Thanks!

 

1320stang

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Apr 4, 2006

#8

• Apr 4, 2006

• #8

Can you see the sides of the flutes of the easy out? You might try and drill those out a bit if you can. The hardened easy out might force the bit into the softer metal. Looking for a way that you can get something in there that will help you to twist it if you can do it without getting into the threads in the block.

If you take a propane torch and a candle, you can heat up the area (concentrate on the block, not the bolt) pretty hot and hit it with the candle wax, the wax will melt and wick into the tiny gaps between the threads. I've used this process successfully many times, most recently to remove 48 head studs from a flathead. 48 STUDS!!!! Many times, once it's loose, it can be backed out with your fingers. You might try sloting it to turn it out with a screw driver as well.

Worst case, there are places that can burn the offending bolt out without damaging the internal threads, but I don't know if they can do it in the car (it's not done with a torch, I can't remember what the process is called).

 

Saleen0679

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Apr 4, 2006

#9

• Apr 4, 2006

• #9

1320stang said:

Worst case, there are places that can burn the offending bolt out without damaging the internal threads, but I don't know if they can do it in the car (it's not done with a torch, I can't remember what the process is called).

Click to expand...

The process is called Electrical Discharge Machining (EDM) or Spark Erosion. The process uses a high intensity spark discharge to disintegrate the bolt supposedly without disturbing the surrounding metal, although I still think you would have to drill out the rest of the threads and use a heli-coil.

I've never seen it done, but I've read an article on the process. You would have to find a shop that has the EDM equipment and find out more details. It isn't supposed to be an expensive process especially if you take into consideration the down time or cost of the offending piece (like expensive heads).

 

S

Sicarius428

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#10

• Apr 4, 2006

• #10

If possible weld another bolt to it or slot it with a dremel and try to use a screwdriver to get it out.
Kevin

 

jaymac

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#11

• Apr 4, 2006

• #11

Well, I definitely can't see the flutes of the EZout. Honestly, if you look th the bolt, you can't even tell there's an ez-out broken off inside it; it looks like one piece.
First I'm gonna have a slow go at the bolt w/ the carbide bits and see what luck i have there. Next I'll try the dremel and slots and screwdriver, but at this point, it's almost below the surface of the block, so I don't know if I can slot it w/o cutting into the block and possibly compromising the gasket surface.
I'm skeptical about being able to weld onto it (without welding the surface of the block) as it's again, almost below the surface of the block.
Dead last resort is pull the engine and find a competent machine shop to fix it.
I'm REALLY REALLY hoping these carbide bits do the trick!!!
Anybody who's willing and able - cross your fingers for me!!!!!!!!!!

 

5

5.0tbirdguy

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#12

• Apr 4, 2006

• #12

The best way to get that out is by a hammer and punch. Just have to work the easy out back and forth until it's loose. Much easier said than done. You will have to sharpen the punch over and over. Try heating the area with map gas. Then finish drilling the hole in the perfect center to a size just smaller than the threads. If you're lucky only the first thread or two will be hurt. You might need a heli-coil by the time it's done.

Don't forget to cover the oil pan to keep out metal shavings.

Carbide bits will go dull on an easy-out unless it's a very cheap easy-out.

 

jaymac

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#13

• Apr 4, 2006

• #13

Well, I've heard about the punch idea, might try that in addition... I'll try the carbide bits first, as I have two and will try and see if they both break or what. I've heard different opinions on the carbide vs. EZouts. Some have said they cut through like butter, most have said go slowly and use lube. Some, like you, have said Won't work. Guess I won't know until i try!
Best case scenario is the small carbide bit actually grabs and backs out the EZout as it's small and not too deep, then I can continue drilling as normal, and drill an actual appropriate-sized hole in the bolt (1/4") vs. the 7/64" i did before (I suck), hopefully avoid the threads, and Voila!
But as we all know, best case scenario's are usually unicorns

 

5.0Droptop

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#14

• Apr 4, 2006

• #14

the only safe way to weld it out is with a Tig welder. You can get the tungsten down into the hole to the bolt build up weld on it and then weld a nut or bolt to it. I have done it hundreds of times. Too bad you dont have access to a tig welder.

 

midlife89

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#15

• Apr 4, 2006

• #15

I might be wrong but don't most of the waterpump bolts run thru the timing chain cover,then into the block?If the bolt is broke flush with the timeing chain cover couldn't you take off the cover to expose the bolt.

 

F

FrogLeg

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#16

• Apr 4, 2006

• #16

The guy that said to use the punch has the best idea for roadside repair.

When I help recover a hmmwv or 5ton from the field that has broken bolts in it we use a pointed punch slanted at an angle and hit it lightly with a hammer to "shock" out the broken easyout tips.

Then drill the darn bolt deep enough and step up to the next drill bit size when you drill the bolt there should be very little left of the bolt, and definately heat the surrounding area before you use the extractor in there

Hope this helps

 

V

v8only

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#17

• Apr 5, 2006

• #17

I had a bolt that broke fairly recently too, and I wound up pulling the motor and replacing it. May be easier than what you're about to attempt. Best of luck. I'm subscribing to see what happens. Perhaps you can try re assembly, and just silicone the **** out of it, who knows.

 

stang8urimport

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#18

• Apr 5, 2006

• #18

I'd use a Cobalt bit... As far as I know, they are the strongest out there. I have a full set (about 30 bits) that was well over 150 bucks... They have never failed me at all. They will drill through anything. I've had this happen at Ford when I did a Water Pump on a 95 F-150 with a 351W.... All I did was drill it out, and tap it... Bam, done... Took all of 20 minutes to do. EZ outs are evil, because if they break, like it did to you... you're screwed.

Nick

 

jaymac

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#19

• Apr 5, 2006

• #19

FrogLeg said:

When I help recover a hmmwv or 5ton from the field that has broken bolts in it we use a pointed punch slanted at an angle and hit it lightly with a hammer to "shock" out the broken easyout tips.
Hope this helps

Click to expand...

What angle should I hit it from? Left to right, as it's a reverse thread??

Midlife, the timing cover is already off; the bolt is broken flush with the block itself. THanks though!

SO, is Cobalt stonger than Carbide?

 

jaymac

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Apr 7, 2006

#20

• Apr 7, 2006

• #20

Hey guys,
First, thanks to everyone who responded:SNSign: !
So, here's what happened:
Got a carbide bit from my buddy, picked up some 3-in-1 oil. Went at it slowly and w/ generous oiling, and took about 15 minutes or so to make good headway (very nervous ).
Than, as it appeared i was in pretty deep, I heard a snap
I pulled out the drill, and saw that the tip of the carbide bit was gone
I thought I was all done, and sent my buddy to go get a punch, and meanwhile, I took a razor blade and stuck the edge of it in the hole to try to pull it out, and guess what fell out into my hand? The tip of the EZout!!
SO iwas excited about that, and then started stepping up the drill sizes.
Very long story short, I ultimately drilled to 1/4", and still could not get the EZout to budge it, even after trying heat, 3-in-1, WD-40, everything...
SO, what I ultimately ended up doing, as I did NOT want to snap another EZout off in there, I just used a tap and re-tapped the hole right through the old bolt, and when I finally got the last of it out, I pulled the tap out, the bolt "skin" was wrapped around the whole end of the tap, digging in like claws. It was kinda wild-lookin'!!
So, YES. I FINALLY got it out..... The threads have a little more play towards the front of the hole than the others, but bite well in the bottom of the hole, as the old bolt never made it that far down. I'm gonna wrap it w/ Teflon tape and pay very colse attention to the torgue specs to be on the safe side when re-installing it.
My PITA now is not being able to get the cork oil pan gaskets to line up w/ the bolt holes, but it's sat overnight w/ Motorcraft grey silicone on the rest of the gasket surfaces, so I don't want to have to tear those off, re-scrape and clean, etc, just to line up those bolt holes...
It certainly sounds like that might be my only option at this point, though. Does anybody else have any other day-saving ideas to save me from having to de-gasket and re-gasket???