Manual or auto better for drag racing?

Cannoball888 · Nov 12, 2006

A friend of mine who has about 5 drag cars told be that an automatic is better for drag racing because of the quicker shifts. Agree? Disagree?

Eyeless_Seven · Nov 12, 2006

I disagree. I would say it come's down to the driver's skill.

351carlo · Nov 12, 2006

He is correct for most of the time.

Anytime a car is faster than an 11.0 or so, it's VERY difficult to keep up with an automatic. A properly built automatic, with C4's, TH400's and Powerglides being the most common.

Please do not be the typical ignorant car drivers who think Manuals are the end all be all of drag racing. Look up what the local guys are running in their 1000hp Mustangs, Novas, Camaros, and Mopars.

To anyone making the 10 second passes in a 4/5/6 speed: You guys rock. I know I couldn't do it.

There is more loss in HP through an automatic, and typically a car will lose an MPH or two, but gain a few tenths ET wise. These automatics are also not a production run automatic, but rather a fully built manual valvebody transbrake automatic with heavy packed clutches and a good gearset able to take the high horsepower applications.

Max Power · Nov 12, 2006

Auto.

Hands down.

1320stang · Nov 12, 2006

Well, for the beginner, an auto is faster, but most serious drag racing is done with a manual. Pro Stock cars make 1500-1600 HP and they run 5 speeds, not autos. There wiould have to be a reason, wouldn't there? There are Power Glides built to handle 2000HP, the problem is, they're 2-speeds, a 5 speed stays in the power band better.

Now, most heads up guys running 1400hp or better are running a hybrid tranny, they're 5-speeds with a converter. Do a search for Bruno transmissions to see what I'm talking about. One problem is though, they're heavy, but most of those cars have to weigh 2800# or better. The other thing is, clutch management is a little above many people's understanding. Billy Glidden runs a 5 speed in his outlaw 10.5 and is way more consistant than most guys running a auto that run against him, but he has years of experience. Dan Millen changed from a auto to a 5-speed, there has to be a reason.

Driving a clutch car is way more fun.

Eyeless_Seven · Nov 12, 2006

To each his own but there are advantage's to being able to stay in a gear for a few second longer. Just because you shift faster with an auto, that not going to win the race for you.

DJE55 · Nov 12, 2006

1320stang said:
Well, for the beginner, an auto is faster, but most serious drag racing is done with a manual. Pro Stock cars make 1500-1600 HP and they run 5 speeds, not autos. There wiould have to be a reason, wouldn't there? There are Power Glides built to handle 2000HP, the problem is, they're 2-speeds, a 5 speed stays in the power band better.

Now, most heads up guys running 1400hp or better are running a hybrid tranny, they're 5-speeds with a converter. Do a search for Bruno transmissions to see what I'm talking about. One problem is though, they're heavy, but most of those cars have to weigh 2800# or better. The other thing is, clutch management is a little above many people's understanding. Billy Glidden runs a 5 speed in his outlaw 10.5 and is way more consistant than most guys running a auto that run against him, but he has years of experience. Dan Millen changed from a auto to a 5-speed, there has to be a reason.

Driving a clutch car is way more fun.

Your post is a little misleading. All the transimission you are referring too funtion as an auto. Billy Glidden isn't pushing in a clutch like any 5spd. He's pulling a gear lever just like an auto. What are the Top Fuel guys running? They aren't running 5speeds and bang'n gears. Also, the transmissions that you talk about cost more than double what most of these guys spent on their motors. You want see them in any street car unless it's a high end Pro-Street show car. Put a built auto in any 5spd Mustang and your ET's will go down. I've drag raced both manuals and auto. You are not bang'n gears quicker than an automatic period.

BullittStangV8 · Nov 12, 2006

I think the real important question in here is this:
Built auto vs manual.

Your typical stock, bolt on 4.6/5.0 with a stock auto vs a stock manual...the manual will win out. HOWEVER, a built auto, with a better converter, shift kit, ect. designed for drag racing in equal cars probably would be slightly faster then a manual.
Now, the faster drag cars, very few of them are running regularly designed 4/5 spds. Most I see have autos.

351carlo · Nov 12, 2006

I was being practical. We are talking conventional transmissions here, not a 7500 dollar race transmission.

Go to your local track if you don't believe me, ask the guys what they run.

351carlo · Nov 12, 2006

Eyeless_Seven said:
To each his own but there are advantage's to being able to stay in a gear for a few second longer. Just because you shift faster with an auto, that not going to win the race for you.

Not trying to be rude, but do you own a 10 second car? Honestly unless you have driven both automatic and manual cars with 450+ RWHP you don't know what you're talking about.

Until you get into the guys with MAJOR MAJOR money, Powerglides are the standard for high 7, 8 and 9 second cars.

95CobraStang · Nov 12, 2006

I'll break it down... cause I like to do that.
Here's what I gather:

1. On slower cars, the weight and efficiency advantage of a manual win (assuming a good driver). I don't know where the cut off is between fast and slow.

2. Build up the auto, and the gap is closed if not gone completely.

3. However when the higher horsepower applications kick in, the fact that the auto tranny will shift quicker than the fastest of manual guys (and more consistently) begins to outweigh manual advantages. Here's why:

With more power, a car picks up speed faster. So each fraction of a second becomes more valuable in keeping power going to the drivetrain. The auto keeps it there longer...

So maybe it's safe to say that a 13sec car is probably better with a manual.... A 9sec car is probably better with an auto... But on either one, if you have crappy equipment, then it all depends... I think then the answer may vary according to your particular application- horsepower, driver skill, transmission... Does that sound right?

LUCAFU1 · Nov 12, 2006

you dont have to compare a 9 sec to a 13 sec car to a 7 sec car.

one question = one answer

auto.

now everyone argue about the "what ifs"

95CobraStang · Nov 12, 2006

If we are going to generalize -as it appears you would like to do - then you are right.

RedGTvert · Nov 12, 2006

You do not have to put big money into a basic auto to make it perform well. A properly prepared auto will hold it's own against any 5-speed and you won't miss a shift.

1320stang · Nov 12, 2006

DJE55 said:
Your post is a little misleading. All the transimission you are referring too funtion as an auto. Billy Glidden isn't pushing in a clutch like any 5spd. He's pulling a gear lever just like an auto. What are the Top Fuel guys running? They aren't running 5speeds and bang'n gears. Also, the transmissions that you talk about cost more than double what most of these guys spent on their motors. You want see them in any street car unless it's a high end Pro-Street show car. Put a built auto in any 5spd Mustang and your ET's will go down. I've drag raced both manuals and auto. You are not bang'n gears quicker than an automatic period.

It's not misleading at all, clutchless 5-speed, it's still a manual, if anything, your post is misleading, that auto is functioning like a manual, your shifting the gears. An auto that you put in drive is an auto. The top fuel guys are running manual transmissions, why are they putting multistage clutches? Have you not seen them shifting with the in car camera? And Pro Stock cars don't have clutchless 5-speeds. A brand new Jerico is about $3450, that's not including the scattershield, double throw-down clutch and pressure plate, but really good converters are around $800-900, so that is about a wash. The Bruno type trannies are the $7500 ones.

The point is, a manual transmission is lighter in most cases than an automatic. There is less parasitic drag with a manual than there is with an automatic. A novice will run faster with a automatic than they would with a manual, granted, but with experience, I think the same car, same driver, the manual will be faster than an auto, mainly due to the car being able to stay in the powerband of the engine. I've grabbed 2nd with the wheels in the air before.

Lets let someone look up the records in NHRA Stock or Super Stock for Manual and Automatic classes. See which are faster between the two for each record, that should settle the argument, agreed? The engine and suspension rules should be equal for both with the only difference being the transmission. Those cars should be more indicative of the power range of the cars most of us have although these cars are tuned to the Nth degree, so it should show the greatest potential available.

LUCAFU1 · Nov 13, 2006

hmm maybe i will start calling autos with a manual valve body a "manual"

DJE55 · Nov 13, 2006

1320stang said:
It's not misleading at all, clutchless 5-speed, it's still a manual, if anything, your post is misleading, that auto is functioning like a manual, your shifting the gears. An auto that you put in drive is an auto. The top fuel guys are running manual transmissions, why are they putting multistage clutches? Have you not seen them shifting with the in car camera? And Pro Stock cars don't have clutchless 5-speeds. A brand new Jerico is about $3450, that's not including the scattershield, double throw-down clutch and pressure plate, but really good converters are around $800-900, so that is about a wash. The Bruno type trannies are the $7500 ones.

The point is, a manual transmission is lighter in most cases than an automatic. There is less parasitic drag with a manual than there is with an automatic. A novice will run faster with a automatic than they would with a manual, granted, but with experience, I think the same car, same driver, the manual will be faster than an auto, mainly due to the car being able to stay in the powerband of the engine. I've grabbed 2nd with the wheels in the air before.

Lets let someone look up the records in NHRA Stock or Super Stock for Manual and Automatic classes. See which are faster between the two for each record, that should settle the argument, agreed? The engine and suspension rules should be equal for both with the only difference being the transmission. Those cars should be more indicative of the power range of the cars most of us have although these cars are tuned to the Nth degree, so it should show the greatest potential available.

Like I said misleading. No Pro-Stock driver is pushing in a clutch. I agree that technically these are manual transmission but, we are talking street cars and I could buy two built autos for the prices you are quoting for your incomplete Jerico. Also, where and when have you seen Top Fuel cars banging gears? I know I've seen them pull a lever for the shoot but, I don't recall seeing them pulling back or up shifting any gears? Misleading. I don't think they are pushing in a clutch either? We are being pratical. Do you run a Jerico or Lenco or Bruno in your street car? I don't think most practical people are? Go to a local track and you'll see what practical guys are running. Like I said, I'll put an auto in any practical street car and make it go faster than a typical 5spd. I'll bet my house on that. BTW, what's type of trans are you hitting 2nd in whit the wheels off the ground? What kind of car and what does it run?

1320stang · Nov 13, 2006

That Jerico is complete for $3450. Theres a used one on the FordFE.com classifieds page with two gearsets for $1900. My buddy bought a PA C-4 Super Comp tranny for $1650 at WFC, web price was $1850. I guess that's just as incomplete as the Jerico as that didn't include the converter, shifter, tranny lines or heavy duty cooler.

All Pro Stock driver's push in a clutch initially, they have to release it to go forward. Same for Top fuel cars, are they just sitting there burning up their clutches? Practical guys? Most guys running at the track had trouble with Algebra in 10th grade, they can't even tune their engine let alone a suspension. Oh, there are some sharp guys running automatics, don't get me wrong, but you don't see too many guys running a manual that have to granny shift unless they're a newbie. Typical 5 speed? Typical 5 speeds are really 4 speeds on the track, you don't use the overdrive gear and if you are, the car isn't tuned right, likely with gears, you should be hitting your peak RPM in 4th as you cross the line.

The tranny in question was a Jerico 4-speed in a 3000# '69 Mach I with a N/A 289 w/ '69 351w heads and a Offy 360 Tunnel Ram with a pair of 660 center squirters and 5.67 rear gears on 9x30 slicks. Ladder bars and coil overs. Ran a best of 11.08 @ 119. All old school.

You just believe what you want and I'll believe what I want and it's all cool.

1320stang · Nov 13, 2006

NHRA Quarter-Mile Record Holders
Updated 11/08/2006
Stock Eliminator
A/S 9.88 133.83 A/SA 9.93 132.78
B/S 10.17 130.76 B/SA 11.05 0.00 Minimum
C/S 10.42 127.05 C/SA 10.33 126.09
D/S 10.76 122.96 D/SA 10.40 125.39
E/S 10.66 124.22 E/SA 10.80 122.31
F/S 11.60 0.00 Minimum F/SA 10.82 122.13
G/S 10.98 121.12 G/SA 10.97 118.32
H/S 10.98 120.90 H/SA 11.11 114.43
I/S 11.09 121.15 I/SA 11.25 115.92
J/S 11.12 119.60 J/SA 11.38 116.47
K/S 12.35 0.00 Minimum K/SA 11.61 114.34
L/S 12.02 107.78 L/SA 12.50 0.00 Minimum
M/S 12.65 0.00 M/SA 11.88 110.11
N/S 12.36 106.01 N/SA 11.95 110.53
O/S 12.46 104.11 O/SA 12.39 105.04
P/S 13.15 0.00 Minimum P/SA 12.60 103.40
Q/S 13.45 0.00 Minimum Q/SA 13.60 0.00 Minimum
R/S 13.75 0.00 Minimum R/SA 13.85 0.00 Minimum
T/S 13.38 98.92 T/SA 13.52 95.48
U/S 14.45 0.00 Minimum U/SA 14.65 0.00 Minimum
V/S 14.82 75.88 V/SA 14.53 89.43
W/S 16.20 0.00 Minimum W/SA 16.45 0.00 Minimum

Okay, I went thru this list and factored out the ones that didn't have records (marked with minimum) and head to head, automatics had 7 to manuals 6, but note Q, R, U and W that both had minimums. The manual times are .10 to .25 faster than the automatic times. That tells me that NHRA thinks that manuals are quicker than automatics and those guys have been in business for over 50 years always adjusting and tweaking things. I think they'd know more about the subject than all of us put together.

Max Power · Nov 13, 2006

95CobraStang said:
If we are going to generalize -as it appears you would like to do - then you are right.

Well, it was a general question, so a generalized answer is not completely innapproprite.

I think we can agree that some classes of drag racing run a hybrid between a manual and an auto, and these trannies are made specifically for racing. Not having to use a clutch when shifting is huge. Races aren't lost on the starting line as much as with missed shifts.

In the 13 second ranges, you will get more power to the ground with a manual, and you can keep you car in the right rpm ranges with more gears, but if you want to win, you better be damn good.

Manual or auto better for drag racing?

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