If you can find the magazine, "Ford Builder" in the March 2005 issue they have a great 5.0 vs. 4.6 comparison article. Ck in book stores, newsstands, etc. This is a new magazine - March 05 was the premier issue...should still be on the newsstand.
Modular VS Pushrod? Where can I get details
- Thread starter Lex
- Start date
StratGT said:
That is far from the reason. Take off a set of heads from a 5.0, then compare them to a 4.6 head, and you'll clearly see why they don't want to invest the time and cost of R & D to make heads for 4.6's.
Untill the cost of the Mod motor parts comes down to be competitive with a pushrod motor, the pushrod will always have a larger aftermarket. Jeeze, the only Mods heads I've noticed lately cost $3500 a set, bare. You can buy Hemi heads for a small block for that price.
The 4.6 2 valve head, due to it's design, has very tight tolerances from the factory. This is the reason why nobody wants to take on making an aftermarket casting. The 4.6 head actually has relatively poor flow numbers, but it would cost a bunch of money, a lot of R&D, and precise QC to churn out a production aftermarket 4.6 casting.
You might be able to squeeze a little more power out of the 5.0 n/a, but like mentioned above, when comparing the two motors with a power adder, the 4.6 can make much more power.
Bare 4.6 castings for $3500?? I don't think so. You are shopping in the wrong place partner
Summit Racing has a fully assembled PI head for $369.95.
You might be able to squeeze a little more power out of the 5.0 n/a, but like mentioned above, when comparing the two motors with a power adder, the 4.6 can make much more power.
Bare 4.6 castings for $3500?? I don't think so. You are shopping in the wrong place partner
Summit Racing has a fully assembled PI head for $369.95.
There isn't a better really. It's just two styles of engines. They are both good. Look at What GM has done with a pushrod engine. The new Z06 is a 500HP car isn't it??? on an N/A pushrod motor. GM has some of the best pushrod motors around and if you compare their pushrods to Ford's OHC's then you would say they are better
Bare 4.6 castings for $3500?? I don't think so. You are shopping in the wrong place partner
Summit Racing has a fully assembled PI head for $369.95.
Ok, I was wrong on the 4.6 head cost, correct that to $1400 each assembled for ported 3 valve heads. You still have to add more to that in gaskets, computer upgrades, etc. And those $370 PI heads ? add the other $385 to that for the other, then you have what? $750 for a set of stock heads? Where's the deal there?
Eveywhere I've looked (occasionally) it seems the cost of doing a Mod motor is far over and above what it cost's to do a pushrod V8. Yea, the Mod are supercharger friendly, but you're talking about a $3000 upgrade for starters. Like I said before, the costs will have to come down to ever compete with a pushrod V8 in the aftermarket. The Mods cost so much, the result is dirt cheap donor cars, good condition Lincoln Mark VIII's sell for less than $1000 with bad engines. I was going to pick one up today (but think I'll wait) for $500. I was going to strip it down and plant my 400+ hp 331 sixpack in it though and ditch the DOHC mod motor.
Wow.....they must have been attached to an engine block for them to be that price. As Kevin stated, you'll looking in the wrong places. PI heads can be had for a little and even less in most cases than a set of stock remanufactured OHV heads.
Yes, but lets not forget the Z06 displaces 427cid, not a paultry 281cid like the 4.6L does. It ain't the fact that it's got pushrods that maked the new Z06 (or LS1/LS2 for that matter) Vettes Rock and Roll, it's their sheer size advantage that gets the job done!
Don't think that a big displacement mod motor wouldn't just as easily crack the 500hp N/A barrier. Hell.....if they're already able to make 400hp with the N/A 5.0L DOHC, just think of what they could do with another 100-150cid under their belt.
I just looked at Ford racings site and that 400 hp 5.0 mod motor listed for $14000. What a deal Ford!!!!!!!. Same HP/torque GM crate 350 costs three times less I'm sure.
So, what's the problem? Lets think about that for a second. For $1,400 you just bought yourself a set of ported 3-Valve heads that will wipe the floor with 80% of the aftermarket OHV castings. You don't consider that a good bang for your buck? Not only that, but you're comparing the cost of a set of 3-valve heads, to a set of 2-valve heads. Apples and Oranges my friend.
As for $750 for a set of stock PI heads.......I'm sorry, where do you see a problem with that? What kind of heads does $750 buy you for an OHV? What.....a set of remanufactured E7TE's or GT-40P's??? Big deal, those heads both suck compared to even a set of stock PI units. You'd have to dip into an aluminum casting to equal or beat the performance of a set of stock PI heads, which my friend is going to shatter that $750 budet in a hurry.
....oh, and in case you forgot, you've got to buy gaskets for the OHV when you change them as well.
Eveywhere I've looked (occasionally) it seems the cost of doing a Mod motor is far over and above what it cost's to do a pushrod V8. Yea, the Mod are supercharger friendly, but you're talking about a $3000 upgrade for starters.
Look, granted I'll give you the cost of building an N/A OHV engine over an OHC engine to a certain point. But only to a point. You wanna really compare apples to apples, lets do that.
To start with....the stock 5.0L HO makes about 185-190rwhp. You're already 35rwhp short of what a stock PI 4.6L makes. Now, in order to make any real power on a 302, you need to address the H/C/I and Exhaust. Alright....so we've now sunk $3,000 into the trusty 5.0 and its making somewhere around 330-340rwhp. Not staggering by any standards, but still more than most 4.6Ls are able to make with bolt-on N/A parts with the same budge.
So what ever is a Mod Motor owner to do? Why waste money on something that doesn't work, when you can spend the same amount of money on a supercharger and with even an entry level kit, blow that 5.0L out of the water? The 4.6L guy has now put that mod motor into the 340-390rwhp range and has spent the same amount of money that the OHV guy did.
"WAIT A MINUTE!!!" the 5.0L guys shouts. "How is that fair comparing a blown engine to a N/A engine??? Of course it's going to make more power......we want a blower too!
You're right, fair is fair. So we'll start over. The 5.0L guys gets a blower and the 4.6L guys goes the N/A route. So the 4.6L guys spends $3,000 on parts and clocks in somewhere around 310-320rwhp. Again, respectable, but not stellar for the money. The grinning 5.0L guys bolts the blower onto that stock iron headed E7TE engine and.....WTF......this things a dog. It's hardly making 300rwhp. Why is that!?! Well, revert back to the original post. The 5.0L is nothing without H/C/I and Exhaust mods. It doesn't matter how much boost you're throwing at the stock 302, you're still effectively trying to breath through a McDonalds straw when you should be using a garden hose!
Ok, fine then, we'll go with both the H/C/I and Exhaust and we'll add a stroker to the mix. That'll put us on even ground with the blown 4.6L. Which is true, but you're still about $1,500 more expensive for the same amount of horsepower. Alright then, it's not secret that the 4.6L has pretty much hit the ceiling at about 420rwhp as far as the stock internals go, so we'll up the anti even more by going with H/C/I/E a stroker and a blower!!! Ha....now we win!!! We're now well over 480rwhp and the blown 4.6L can't come anywhere near that, without risking a melt down!
Yup...true again, but since we're still working with the original $3,000 put into our 4.6L and you're now up in the $8,000 range with your 5.0L, I guess it's safe to say there’s more than enough room for a forged internal component upgrade. So, the 4.6L guys adds $1,500-$2,500 (depending on the type of components and labor involved) to the short block and cranks up the boost. He's now running even with the 5.0L guy.
Ha....fooled you the 5.0L guys says, my new stroker kit was forged as well, so cranking up the boost for me is nothing....so up, up he goes into the 500-525rwhp range. Well damn.....what's a modular guys to do, I guess since we've still got a couple thousand dollars to play with, we'll spring for a set of ported "crappy" PI heads and a set of cams! Well, look who just joined the 550-600rwhp club and has still got room to grow!
That's fine says the 5.0L guys, I'll just crank up the boost again and......oh.....wait. I've reached the limits of the stock block. Damn...no problem, I'll just spring for an aftermarket block to take the power....
....what.....$2,500 for a block!?!? ....well, so much for "the 5.0L is a cheaper to build than the 4.6L" argument.
And that $369.95 is a FULLY assembled PI head. Meaning it includes camshaft, cam bearing caps, rockers/followers, lifters, valves, springs, retainers, valve locks and all. Swap cam(timing) gears and bolt on the head. I'd say that ain't too shabby.
The 4.6 2 valve head, due to it's design, has very tight tolerances from the factory. This is the reason why nobody wants to take on making an aftermarket casting. The 4.6 head actually has relatively poor flow numbers, but it would cost a bunch of money, a lot of R&D, and precise QC to churn out a production aftermarket 4.6 casting.
You might be able to squeeze a little more power out of the 5.0 n/a, but like mentioned above, when comparing the two motors with a power adder, the 4.6 can make much more power.
Bare 4.6 castings for $3500?? I don't think so. You are shopping in the wrong place partner
Summit Racing has a fully assembled PI head for $369.95.
If money is no object a modular head can be digitized and a billet set cut on a CNC machine. The real measure of an engine is BMEP and 500 ci PRO Stock cam in block engine make about as good as you will see in an N/A engine. In a OHC engine you do not have push rods and this can make intake port design much easier. But in a racing engine using offset lifts and rocket arms you can work around many of this limitations. Each design has pluses and minuses to it. What is the use for engine?
Absolutely.
Hey Stan, tell you what, you let me borrow the money and you develop the software to digitize our 2 valve heads, I will get the ball rolling on a billet head for us.
Hey Stan, tell you what, you let me borrow the money and you develop the software to digitize our 2 valve heads, I will get the ball rolling on a billet head for us.
Kevin,
Much of the technology is available to the public now. What do some of the NASCAR teams have?
About what AFR does
http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/0797bp4.html
From M2
2. I have a cylinder head that I have ported and want it copied. Can you do that and if you can, how much does it cost and how much time does it take?
M2 is a leader in custom CNC ported cylinder heads. We can machine nearly every type of cylinder head from motorcycles to mountain motors. If you have a port design you want copied, we will have to look at it to make sure it is within our capabilities. We will then digitize the ports and combustion chamber and create a CNC program for it. Send us your cores to machine and that's it! Typically, engineering costs $2000 per style cylinder head (which includes fixture fabrication, reverse engineering and program creation). Machining cost is extra. If you have a large initial order, we can work out volume pricing on engineering and machining. Please contact M2 for details. It will take us anywhere from 4-8 weeks from receiving the model head to sending a CNC'd copy back to you.
http://www.m2race.com/faqs.asp
Much of the technology is available to the public now. What do some of the NASCAR teams have?
About what AFR does
http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/0797bp4.html
From M2
2. I have a cylinder head that I have ported and want it copied. Can you do that and if you can, how much does it cost and how much time does it take?
M2 is a leader in custom CNC ported cylinder heads. We can machine nearly every type of cylinder head from motorcycles to mountain motors. If you have a port design you want copied, we will have to look at it to make sure it is within our capabilities. We will then digitize the ports and combustion chamber and create a CNC program for it. Send us your cores to machine and that's it! Typically, engineering costs $2000 per style cylinder head (which includes fixture fabrication, reverse engineering and program creation). Machining cost is extra. If you have a large initial order, we can work out volume pricing on engineering and machining. Please contact M2 for details. It will take us anywhere from 4-8 weeks from receiving the model head to sending a CNC'd copy back to you.
http://www.m2race.com/faqs.asp
And you STILL have a set of $750 heads that are no different than what you could have picked up used (there are thousands of these filling up the Junkyards now with the retirement of all the police cars) and spent a little bit for a rebuild. Sorry, I don't see the deal there.And that $369.95 is a FULLY assembled PI head. Meaning it includes camshaft, cam bearing caps, rockers/followers, lifters, valves, springs, retainers, valve locks and all. Swap cam(timing) gears and bolt on the head. I'd say that ain't too shabby.
What's a pair of SOHC cams cost now ? $700 or so? Or are you content to run the stock PI cams ? I can buy second hand Ford Racing rollers for the 5.0 block for less than $125 and you only need one. Ford seems to be catering to the wine and cheese crowd now with their offerings. That's why they haven't done any better in the aftermarket. I;d love to do some upgrades to my 06 GT, but the cost is prohibitive. Just a set of chrome valve covers and something to hide the butt-ugly intake would cost me $500 and I'd have nothing to show for it in performance. You can bet if the engine in this thing ever goes south, it'll get a pushrod replacement. You've thrown out so much info here it's hard to follow your reasoning. I built my 400-450 hp 331 stroker from the ground up for $3000. Add the cost of it's 3- 2bbl Holley carbs and asssociated parts and it's only $4100. I don't know what that translates to in RWHP, but in a 3800 lb Ranger with the areodynamics of a brick and it was pushing it to mid 13's. Topend was 140 mph.So, what's the problem? Lets think about that for a second. For $1,400 you just bought yourself a set of ported 3-Valve heads that will wipe the floor with 80% of the aftermarket OHV castings. You don't consider that a good bang for your buck? Not only that, but you're comparing the cost of a set of 3-valve heads, to a set of 2-valve heads. Apples and Oranges my friend.
As for $750 for a set of stock PI heads.......I'm sorry, where do you see a problem with that? What kind of heads does $750 buy you for an OHV? What.....a set of remanufactured E7TE's or GT-40P's??? Big deal, those heads both suck compared to even a set of stock PI units. You'd have to dip into an aluminum casting to equal or beat the performance of a set of stock PI heads, which my friend is going to shatter that $750 budet in a hurry.
....oh, and in case you forgot, you've got to buy gaskets for the OHV when you change them as well.
Look, granted I'll give you the cost of building an N/A OHV engine over an OHC engine to a certain point. But only to a point. You wanna really compare apples to apples, lets do that.
To start with....the stock 5.0L HO makes about 185-190rwhp. You're already 35rwhp short of what a stock PI 4.6L makes. Now, in order to make any real power on a 302, you need to address the H/C/I and Exhaust. Alright....so we've now sunk $3,000 into the trusty 5.0 and its making somewhere around 330-340rwhp. Not staggering by any standards, but still more than most 4.6Ls are able to make with bolt-on N/A parts with the same budge.
So what ever is a Mod Motor owner to do? Why waste money on something that doesn't work, when you can spend the same amount of money on a supercharger and with even an entry level kit, blow that 5.0L out of the water? The 4.6L guy has now put that mod motor into the 340-390rwhp range and has spent the same amount of money that the OHV guy did.
"WAIT A MINUTE!!!" the 5.0L guys shouts. "How is that fair comparing a blown engine to a N/A engine??? Of course it's going to make more power......we want a blower too!
You're right, fair is fair. So we'll start over. The 5.0L guys gets a blower and the 4.6L guys goes the N/A route. So the 4.6L guys spends $3,000 on parts and clocks in somewhere around 310-320rwhp. Again, respectable, but not stellar for the money. The grinning 5.0L guys bolts the blower onto that stock iron headed E7TE engine and.....WTF......this things a dog. It's hardly making 300rwhp. Why is that!?! Well, revert back to the original post. The 5.0L is nothing without H/C/I and Exhaust mods. It doesn't matter how much boost you're throwing at the stock 302, you're still effectively trying to breath through a McDonalds straw when you should be using a garden hose!
Ok, fine then, we'll go with both the H/C/I and Exhaust and we'll add a stroker to the mix. That'll put us on even ground with the blown 4.6L. Which is true, but you're still about $1,500 more expensive for the same amount of horsepower. Alright then, it's not secret that the 4.6L has pretty much hit the ceiling at about 420rwhp as far as the stock internals go, so we'll up the anti even more by going with H/C/I/E a stroker and a blower!!! Ha....now we win!!! We're now well over 480rwhp and the blown 4.6L can't come anywhere near that, without risking a melt down!
Yup...true again, but since we're still working with the original $3,000 put into our 4.6L and you're now up in the $8,000 range with your 5.0L, I guess it's safe to say there’s more than enough room for a forged internal component upgrade. So, the 4.6L guys adds $1,500-$2,500 (depending on the type of components and labor involved) to the short block and cranks up the boost. He's now running even with the 5.0L guy.
Ha....fooled you the 5.0L guys says, my new stroker kit was forged as well, so cranking up the boost for me is nothing....so up, up he goes into the 500-525rwhp range. Well damn.....what's a modular guys to do, I guess since we've still got a couple thousand dollars to play with, we'll spring for a set of ported "crappy" PI heads and a set of cams! Well, look who just joined the 550-600rwhp club and has still got room to grow!
That's fine says the 5.0L guys, I'll just crank up the boost again and......oh.....wait. I've reached the limits of the stock block. Damn...no problem, I'll just spring for an aftermarket block to take the power....
....well, so much for "the 5.0L is a cheaper to build than the 4.6L" argument.
Basically......
5.0 with H/C/I exhaust cost>4.6 HCI exhaust (#'s wise)
Performance of 5.0 boltons>4.6 boltons
FI 5.0<FI 4.6 (powergain #'s wise)
FI cost 5.0< FI cost 4.6
FI peformance 5.0< FI performance 4.6
Basically each motor has their own highs and lows. 5.0's love full boltons whereas 4.6's love boost/spray, and for a equal numbers, a 4.6 on boost is waay cheaper than 5.0 to put down the same numbers.
Obviously there are so many other variables, but each motor is built by their owner to do whatever the hell they want to do it.
But I still think the GM's pushrod can beat the crap out of anything Ford has produced, Ford just needs to start producing some vehicles with much more displacement, IDC if they are FI or N/A....do it Ford!
You are right, the digitizing of the port geometry on a head has been around before I was even born, but the digitizing of the complete head, and namely a OHC head, is still a wash. The reason being is the tolerances of the OHC cylinder head are much more critical since the camshaft is bolted to the head. Things like the cam bearing webs and the locations of the bearing cap bolt holes must be within vey tight specs. Most of the aftermarket cylinder head manufacturers just don't want to take on this task of designing a head like this that requires such tight tolerances. But I wish someone would.
Ford Cup cars using the 5° UPM-D3 cylinder head are still cast using 356-T6 aluminum. These heads are supposed to flow over 440 CFM this year. No billet heads in NASCAR as far as I know. Most of their computer time is spent doing CFD.
And you STILL have a set of $750 heads that are no different than what you could have picked up used (there are thousands of these filling up the Junkyards now with the retirement of all the police cars) and spent a little bit for a rebuild. Sorry, I don't see the deal there.
I don't recall anybody here saying they would be content with a set of stock heads or cams, we were nearly trying to show you the actual relatively cheap cost of a fully assembled 4.6 2 valve head, a far cry from the $3500 bare casting quote you spoke of earlier. You can also find many reputable shops across the nation to fully port and prep a set for well under $2000. That is also a very good deal in my opinion.
You would spend MUCH more putting together a new pushrod head including the new rockers and lifters along with the build...much more.
How is Ford catering to the wine and cheese crowd?
I'm assuming you are looking at the 5.0 modular "Cammer" engine with the 4V FR500 heads and Magnesium intake? Thats not exactly your run of the mill modular replacement engine but more of the best of the best for show and specialty vehicles. I also think that 400hp is vastly under rated.
