More Power Basic Info Thread

rcmustang17 said:

I was thinking of going with gt40 heads, ported explorer intake, and a TFS 1 cam. Looking at the chart would I be better of with just the stock gt cam? Also do you guys have any thoughts on building up an AODE tranny? I currently have a shift kit but am looking for a little bit more

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I've not messed with an auto trans in years
but
Most will tell you a higher stall tc and a shift kit is a must have

Also ... with an auto without the above mods ........

A cam can cause a noticable loss in low end torque

Grady

95BlueStallion said:

So Mr. Grady, do we want to build on this thread more? So far we have determined that to gain any decent amount of power from a stock 5 liter mustang, you will need to step up to a GT-40 or aftermarket H/C/I setup. Of course the supporting mods have to be installed along with that. Are we going to add to that? Such as maybe a list of supporting mods that will help utilize that H/C/I combo to its fullest? What size injectors, MAF, TB, etc for those set ups? Or else maybe what some have done after getting bored with their H/C/I upgrade on a stock short block. We can talk with some folks who have gone forced induction instead of H/C/I also... Who wants to share stories about their blown, H/C/I 5.0's and how they have made it last? I know there are guys on here with em.

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Sure ... We can talk more :Word:

I've extended as open of an invitation to all
best as I know how

The thread has kinda turned out like that old story about ....

Leading a horse to water
but
Ya can't force em to take a drink

We'll see if there are any ... thirsty horses ... out there

Grady

95BlueStallion said:

You do have a good point. Just because people on here have certain combo's, I guess that doesnt always mean they want to talk about them. So Grady, do you plan on upgrading your TB and MAF anytime soon to see if you jump over the 300 rwhp mark? I can understand keeping the stock cat-back for sound reasons. Surely you arent "done" with your car.

Edit: I just looked at your personal site for the first time and now see that you DID upgrade the TB and MAF already!

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That Old Site

All I use it for anymore is to host my stuff I share
with you guys from time to time

Yes ... I did move to a different meter and tb

I didn't have much choice on the meter
as I was pegging it just a wee bit

I've not been back to the dyno since my posted results which were
really just a few shake down kinda pulls to see how all the new
hot rod parts were working

No ... I'm not done with my car
but
My long time profession took a slow but steady decline
therefore
Funds to spend on Daddy's Hot Rod ........

Well ... We all understand about priorities ... Don't we

I can say the tb/meter did pick up at mid range and as the rpm's
climb ... the gain grows with them to just a tad over 6k

Now ... Enough talk about ... as my daughter calls it .....

Old Man Red

Lets hear about some folks who wanna go to the next level
with making power for THEIR Stang

Grady

Thought I'd point out something peeps may not have considered

Lets focus in on OEM .........
SB, GT40/40p heads/alphabet cam/ & Cobra intake based NA combos

Do you wonder why MOST don't make any more power than they do

Surely ... You've seen that massive thread about trying to reach 300

Consider the application

Most of the time ... Peeps who use said parts

1) are on a budget which doesn't allow a custom tune
2) can be just starting off and lack experience to cover all details
3) look at the cost justification and stop short of doing everything needed

You could also say the same when using aftermarket parts with 2 & 3
when you see lower than normal results

Grady

rcmustang17 said:

Is there a right way to get to 300whp with those parts?

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Sure ... Peeps who understand the fundamentals of making power ...........

They would study the strong and weak points of the sbf shortblock,
and OEM parts bolted on said sb

They would buy or modify to strengthen up those weak points

A good example is the piss poor e ports of OEM iron heads

For years now ... peeps have used a cam that will crutch up the e ports

anyhoo ....

I'm sure they would do the same if using aftermarket parts

Here is how I see those peeps and peeps like me differ

First of all ... they know a whole lot more than me
Second of all ... if you do such a thing ... you will lay out a lot of cash

You see this thing done in that class of racing which uses OEM parts
Them boys make a WHOLE LOT of horse power ... way past 300

Sorry ... I forget the name of that class of racing
But along with mega hp ... them boys spend maga dollars

Trying to make power beyond what most make from those combos
gets to a point of ... Well ... the cost is just not worth it

Now ... I'm not just picking on OEM stuff here
cause
The same could be said about using aftermarket parts

You have to look at the cost and possibility of power to be made
and see if going beyond the average limit is feasible

Lets face it ... most on this site ... myself included ...

We are looking for the easy way to make power
and
That is usually with parts we can easily bolt on the shortblock

That is why a power adder can be so attractive :Word:

As for 300 or better with OEM parts
heck fire
A lot don't even make it with aftermarket parts

I didn't quite make it myself

It is a pretty tall order to make 300+ SAE NA using aftermarket stuff
AND
Have stock like drivability using the OEM shortblock

Doesn't it stand to reason ..................

Trying to do the same with parts designed 20 or more years ago is
gonna be all the more harder to do

Grady

95BlueStallion said:

Hey grady, I was looking at your chart, but its hard to compare what I am wondering. Do you know if there a big difference in power on the table between a TFS Street intake and the tubular GT40 intake on a stock short block? Eventually I will have aluminum heads, but planned on keeping my Street heat intake even then. I have a friend with the tubular GT40 who is thinking his built 306 would benefit from having my TFS upper/lower. He is willing to give up some cash in a trade deal, which would help toward my purchase of bigger injectors on a quest for an H/C/I swap. Will I be giving away much in terms of hp or torque numbers by using the tubular GT 40 when I go to aluminum heads? I havent found a clear comparison of runner length, and thought you may know with your tuning studies.

Click to expand...

Nick

Here is some data based upon Aluminum heads

This will give you some more combos to look at that might be using
an intake you are considering

From what I've seen the longest runner uppers don't differer all that
much which would be OEM Cobra, Steel tube GT40, TFS Street Heat,
and Edel Performer

The thing to always remember about those long runners is they poop
out kinda early in the rpm band

Now ... I do wanna say I've seen when peeps port the lower using
the longest runner it looks better

But what has never made sense to me is
By the time you go to the trouble and expense of porting

Just go with an aftermarket mid length runner and be done with it

You want to do more than ... just make peak power :Word:

You want to extend the power band

Now ... Some of the time ... it will be shifted up just a bit as well

It just depends upon how serious you are gonna get with your plans
when talking about how much it will be shifted up

anyway ... here is another chart for you

Grady

Let me make something clear about those two charts

I found a good bit of the data on the net
but
There is a small amount of stuff from my ... personal ... files

The problem with those two charts is ........

Type of dyno and Calibration used on the pulls is unknown

That can throw off things a good bit
but
You can still see the trends after you have looked at a lot of em

Now ... about the tfs/oem cobra/stage 2 combo

The oem tb/meter would not be holding him back all that much
and here is the reason why

The biggest concern would be if he was pegging the meter
and
Since he is running oem exhaust manifolds and oem cobra intake

It is doubtful he can generate enough airflow to peg it

Another thing is he might be trying to run that meter and 24's
with an untuned GT pcm which would be a real no no

Also ... he could have had the pull done on a Mustang Dyno
which almost always reads less than a Dynojet

Another thing which is a real possibility is

Notice TFS heads ... That says stud rr's

That means he might not have known how to adjust rr's correctly

We've seen it over and over how peeps get em too tight

But Yes ... 248 sounds a bit low for that combo

Grady

Bullitt95 said:

Here's my current list of performance mods with dyno results:

Stock: 168rwhp @ 4500rpm, 218rwtq @ 3400rpm (AODE)
Stock: 16.03 @ 89.4

C&L 76mm MAF/CAI kit
Summit Racing 75mm throttle body
Edelbrock Performer intake manifold (added 15rwhp/7rwtq by itself)
DIY-ported E7TE heads milled 0.010"
Stock cam
Crane 1.7 roller rockers
ASP underdrive crank pulley
Smog/EGR delete
MAC 1-5/8" long tube headers
Custom shorty 2.5" offroad H-pipe
Straight-through mufflers with stock tailpipes
Walbro 190lph fuel pump
BBK adjustable fuel pressure regulator set at 45psi
Stock 19lb injectors
Replacement 4R70W tranny with Transgo HD2 shift kit
Stock torque converter (currently stalls at ~2200rpm, stock engine stall ~2000rpm)
Ford Racing aluminium driveshaft
Ford Racing 3.73 gearset
MM rear lower and Edelbrock rear upper control arms
111lb weight reduction

Modified: 244rwhp @ 5150rpm, 284rwtq @ 3950rpm
Modified: 13.46 @ 104.5

I plotted both sets of dyno curves onto one image so you can see them side by side. Both dyno pulls were done on the same Dynojet (SAE):

Click to expand...

Its great you provided the stock results

It is well known a stick trans GT will lay down about 185 SAE rwhp
give or take a few

So I guess you could say the auto trans takes about 20 in your case

I would point out you now got a different auto trans
and
I know very little about any of em
but
I would wonder if the 4R70W would be more or less efficient

anyway

If you add 20 to your current combo

I'd tell you 264 SAE rwhp for a stick trans with the mods I see here
would be pretty good as I see it

Grady

Hey

I remember you from the past ... Its Jeremy ... IIRC

Where have you been as I don't remember seeing you post lately

fiveoho said:

alright, i got a few questions. basic stuff.

ive never checked or had the timing checked on my 95. what is it suppose to be? i have heard that by bumping the timing, some guys have noticed a subtle difference in performance. what can it be bumped to (safely) and is this true?

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The OEM setting on the dizzy is 10

Yes ... It is possible to find some more get up and go with advanced
settings at the dizzy

however

GT stangs have high values in the mid load range of their spark table
therefore
You won't be able to go much before you hear the ping thing

I'd add 2 and see how it goes
then
Drive it a couple of days listening for ping
then
If no ping ... try a couple more
and so forth
When you hear ping ... go back down 2

You most likely can go more with 93 grade gas
and
A smaller amount of advance with the lesser grade of gas

also, doesn't our cars retard the timing between shifts? please explain how this works and if there is a way around it. if it didnt retard timing, that would help some too, right?

Click to expand...

Well ... Yes and No
on the shift retard as many peeps mistakenly call it

You ask how it works
so
After we see how it ... REALLY ... works ... You'll see why its misunderstood

Say you are in third gear on level ground at a steady rpm of about 1500
This condition will put the throttle just barely open
and
You will be operating at a very low load condition

To evoke the retard ........
all you gotta do is go to the floor with the skinny pedal

You'll encounter a spark retard to the value of 5 for about 1/2 second

The action that caused this event to happen is ... NOT ... shifting

What caused it to happen is the ... tipping in ... of the throttle
hence
The ... CORRECT NAME .. minimun tip in spark retard

Yes ... It can happen during a shift
but
Well ... That just don't tell folk

The WHOLE story

It can be done away with by changing values in the pcm
and
It makes a difference that can be felt for sure

You could bypass the retard with a power shift
cause
You would not have any throttle tip in on the upshift
but
You'd be doing a thing your t-5 would not like one little bit

currently i have 120k on my stock 5.0. i have the following mods:

mac shorty headers
o/r x pipe
spintech prostreets
crappy ebay cai w/fenderwell no-name filter (i wonder if this hurts more than helps)
msd coil(recent)
msd cap(recent)
frpp 9mm wires(recent)
autolite plugs(recent)
frpp 4.10
centerforce II clutch
motorcraft fuel filter - done at time of tune up
walbro 190 pump - factory pump got way loud

few other things but nothing performance related. the car runs great but is just....slow. or slow to me anyway. back to basics here - whats my next options that might improve power without hurting the wallet?

lastly, your thoughts on performance chips. moates, hypertech, jet, etc.


grady posted in the original post that no one should be slandered for any question....so, go easy on me

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Not sure what your long term goals for the car might be
but
Staying within the bounds of NA and tight budget

Here are a few ideas or two as I see it

Pulleys ... You'll pick up torque ALL across the rpm range

CAI ... make sure it pulls in air from the fender
when the temp is cool ... you will feel a difference
when the temp is hot ... no difference

Roller Rockers with a higher ratio like 1.7
but
Honestly ... Don't expect more that 3 to 5 rwhp
therefore
I've never seen that mod as being very cost effective myself

Where I think you would pick up some noticeable power
would be with a long runner intake such as
OEM Cobra
Edel Performer
TFS Street Heat

About tuning ..........
Store bought chips are gonna do next to nothing or nothing :Word:

Moates is a method where an optimized set of values are loaded
on a chip ... so you see ... That is a custom tune

Of course ...
The effectiveness of that method is in direct proportion to the amount
of knowledge one commands to know how to modify the pcm

Well Jeremy
Hope something we've talked here about gives you an idea or two

Grady

Bullitt95 said:

Thanks Grady. From all the stock dyno results that I've seen, the T5 has a drivetrain loss of ~13% whereas the AODE/4R70W has a loss of ~23%.
I'm very happy with my combo as it is. Idle is smooth (no surging), driveability is excellent, and I'm getting very good gas mileage. I'm aware that there's still a lot more HP still under the table (~35rwhp from AFR 165's, ~10rwhp from a cam). Just deciding whether it's worth spending over $3000 for an extra 45rwhp plus a higher rpm stall torque converter so I can run deep into the 12's. So far my build-up has been fairly low cost and it's a night and day difference from stock.
I would like to shave off more weight and I've just realised that I have a full size spare wheel (47lb) in the trunk. The original factory spare wheel would have been a space saver so can anyone tell me what size are the space saver rim and tire, and how much it weighs? I'd rather carry that in the trunk so that the mat will sit flush on the floor.

Click to expand...

I put a focus in the quote about what I believe is of most importance

Let me get right to the point

A blower seems to cure the issue of
The maximum gain for the least buck spent

Sure ... A blower is not for everybody
but
It really does offer some things that should at least be considered :Word:

Grady