Fuel Mustang 1993 - Fuel pressure issue/Misfire

Ant01n3

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Oct 31, 2017
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Ok I'm having fuel pressure issue during cold starts and a misfire on under load between 2k to 3k rpm while driving. On a cold start, I have to cycle the ignition 3 or 4 times to get enough fuel pressure for the engine to start. After the car idles and warms up it has steady fuel pressure at 35 psi. If I shut the car off the fuel pressure immediately drops to 0. But if I try to start the car after it is already warm, no issues starting.


I ran the KOEO, KOER and the Cylinder balance tests and this is what I get:

KOEO: 15, 85, 10, 11 (moates QH installed, the reason for code 15)

KOER: 41, 91

CBT: 90

I already changed the fuel pump. Could the issue be the BBK FPR? I've heard they have been known to have issues.
 
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jrichker

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Ok I'm having fuel pressure issue during cold starts and a misfire on under load between 2k to 3k rpm while driving. On a cold start, I have to cycle the ignition 3 or 4 times to get enough fuel pressure for the engine to start. After the car idles and warms up it has steady fuel pressure at 35 psi. If I shut the car off the fuel pressure immediately drops to 0. But if I try to start the car after it is already warm, no issues starting.


I ran the KOEO, KOER and the Cylinder balance tests and this is what I get:

KOEO: 15, 85, 10, 11 (moates QH installed, the reason for code 15)

KOER: 41, 91

CBT: 90

I already changed the fuel pump. Could the issue be the BBK FPR? I've heard they have been known to have issues.

What year car? Can't chase any fuel pump electrical problems without that information.

Standard reply: Fix the codes first, then chase other problems.

Code 10 is a spacer code that mark the start of the code dump/
Code 11 is computer internal self test passed.


CBT code 90 is all cylinders passed.

Code 41 or 91. Or 43 Three digit code 172 or 176 - O2 sensor indicates system lean. Look for a vacuum leak or failing O2 sensor.

Revised 20-July-2017 to add note that the 94-95 uses a 4 wire O2 sensor.

Code 41 is the passenger side sensor, as viewed from the driver's seat.
Code 91 is the driver side sensor, as viewed from the driver's seat.

Code 172 is the passenger side sensor as viewed from the driver's seat.
Code 176 is the driver side sensor, as viewed from the driver's seat.

Code 43 is not side specific according to the Probst Ford Fuel injection book.

The computer sees a lean mixture signal coming from the O2 sensors and tries to compensate by adding more fuel. Many times the end result is an engine that runs pig rich and stinks of unburned fuel.

The following is a Quote from Charles O. Probst, Ford fuel Injection & Electronic Engine control:
"When the mixture is lean, the exhaust gas has oxygen, about the same amount as the ambient air. So the sensor will generate less than 400 Millivolts. Remember lean = less voltage.

When the mixture is rich, there's less oxygen in the exhaust than in the ambient air , so voltage is generated between the two sides of the tip. The voltage is greater than 600 millivolts. Remember rich = more voltage.

Here's a tip: the newer the sensor, the more the voltage changes, swinging from as low as 0.1 volt to as much as 0.9 volt. As an oxygen sensor ages, the voltage changes get smaller and slower - the voltage change lags behind the change in exhaust gas oxygen.

Because the oxygen sensor generates its own voltage, never apply voltage and never measure resistance of the sensor circuit. To measure voltage signals, use an analog voltmeter with a high input impedance, at least 10 megohms. Remember, a digital voltmeter will average a changing voltage." End Quote

Testing the O2 sensors 87-93 5.0 Mustangs
Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear.

Disconnect the O2 sensor from the harness and use the body side O2 sensor harness as the starting point for testing. Do not measure the resistance of the O2 sensor , you may damage it. Resistance measurements for the O2 sensor harness are made with one meter lead on the O2 sensor harness and the other meter lead on the computer wire or pin for the O2 sensor.

Computer wiring harness connector, computer side.
88243.gif

Backside view of the computer wiring connector:
a9x-series-computer-connector-wire-side-view-gif.gif


87-90 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Dark blue/Lt green – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Dark Green/Pink – RH O2 sensor
The computer pins are 29 (L\RH O2 with a dark green/pink wire) and 43 (LH O2 with a dark blue/pink wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.

91-93 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a Gray/Lt blue wire) and 43 (RH O2 with a Red/Black wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.


Testing the O2 sensors 94-95 5.0 Mustangs; note that the 94-95 uses a 4 wire O2 sensor.
Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear. The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a red/black wire) and 27 (RH O2 with a gray/lt blue wire). Use pin 32 (gray/red wire) to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.


Note that all resistance tests must be done with power off. Measuring resistance with a circuit powered on will give false readings and possibly damage the meter. Do not attempt to measure the resistance of the O2 sensors, it may damage them.

Testing the O2 sensor wiring harness
Most of the common multimeters have a resistance scale. Be sure the O2 sensors are disconnected and measure the resistance from the O2 sensor body harness to the pins on the computer. Using the Low Ohms range (usually 200 Ohms) you should see less than 1.5 Ohms.

87-90 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Dark blue/Lt green – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Dark Green/Pink – RH O2 sensor
Disconnect the connector from the O2 sensor and measure the resistance:
From the Dark blue/Lt green wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Dark blue/Lt green wire on the computer pin 43
From the Dark Green/Pink wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Dark Green/Pink wire on the computer pin 29

91-93 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
Disconnect the connector from the O2 sensor and measure the resistance:
From the Red/Black wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Red/Black wire on the computer pin 43
From the Dark Green/Pink Gray/Lt blue wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Gray/Lt blue wire on the computer pin 29

94-95 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 29 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 27 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
From the Red/Black wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Red/Black wire on the computer pin 29
From the Dark Green/Pink Gray/Lt blue wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Gray/Lt blue wire on the computer pin 27

There is a connector between the body harness and the O2 sensor harness. Make sure the connectors are mated together, the contacts and wiring are not damaged and the contacts are clean and not coated with oil.

The O2 sensor ground (orange wire with a ring terminal on it) is in the wiring harness for the fuel injection wiring. I grounded mine to one of the intake manifold bolts

Check the fuel pressure – the fuel pressure is 37-41 PSI with the vacuum disconnected and the engine idling. Fuel pressure out of range can cause the 41 & 91 codes together. It will not cause a single code, only both codes together.

Make sure you have the proper 3 wire O2 sensors. Only the 4 cylinder cars used a 4 wire sensor, which is not compatible with the V8 wiring harness. The exception is that the 94-95 uses a 4 wire O2 sensor.

Replace the O2 sensors in pairs if replacement is indicated. If one is weak or bad, the other one probably isn't far behind.

Code 41 can also be due to carbon plugging the driver’s side Thermactor air crossover tube on the back of the engine. The tube fills up with carbon and does not pass air to the driver’s side head ports. This puts an excess amount of air in the passenger side exhaust and can set the code 41. Remove the tube and clean it out so that both sides get good airflow: this may be more difficult than it sounds. You need something like a mini rotor-rooter to do the job because of the curves in the tube. Something like the outer spiral jacket of a flexible push-pull cable may be the thing that does the trick.

If you get only code 41 and have changed the sensor, look for vacuum leaks. This is especially true if you are having idle problems. The small plastic tubing is very brittle after many years of the heating it receives. Replace the tubing and check the PVC and the hoses connected to it.


Code 85 CANP solenoid - The Carbon Canister solenoid is inoperative or missing.

Revised 11 –Jan_2015 to add warning about vacuum leaks due to deteriorated hose or missing caps on vacuum lines when the solenoid is removed.

Check vacuum lines for leaks and cracks. Check electrical wiring for loose connections, damaged wiring and insulation. Check solenoid valve operation by grounding the gray/yellow wire to the solenoid and blowing through it.
The computer provides the ground for the solenoid. The red wire to the solenoid is always energized any time the ignition switch is in the run position.

If you disconnected the carbon canister and failed to properly cap the vacuum line coming from under the upper intake manifold, you will have problems. You will also have problems if the remaining hose coming from under the upper intake manifold or caps for the vacuum line are sucking air.

Charcoal canister plumbing - one 3/8" tube from the bottom of the upper manifold to the rubber hose. Rubber hose connects to one side of the canister solenoid valve. Other side of the solenoid valve connects to one side of the canister. The other side of the canister connects to a rubber hose that connects to a line that goes all the way back to the gas tank. There is an electrical connector coming from the passenger side injector harness near #1 injector that plugs into the canister solenoid valve. It's purpose is to vent the gas tank. The solenoid valve opens at cruse to provide some extra fuel. The canister is normally mounted on the passenger side frame rail near the smog pump pulley.

Connecting the gas tank vent line directly to the intake manifold will result in fuel vapor being constantly sucked into the intake manifold. There is unmetered fuel that the computer cannot adjust for. The result is poor idle and poor fuel economy.

attachments\58191


It does not weigh but a pound or so and helps richen up the cruse mixture. It draws no HP & keeps the car from smelling like gasoline in a closed garage. So with all these good things and no bad ones, why not hook it up & use it?


The purge valve solenoid connector is a dangling wire that is near the ECT sensor and oil filler on the passenger side rocker cover. The actual solenoid valve is down next to the carbon canister. There is about 12"-16" of wire that runs parallel to the canister vent hose that comes off the bottom side of the upper intake manifold. That hose connects one port of the solenoid valve; the other port connects to the carbon canister.

The purge valve solenoid should be available at your local auto parts store.

Purge valve solenoid:
smp-cp402_df_xl.jpg



The carbon canister is normally mounted on the passenger side frame rail near the smog pump pulley.
Carbon Canister:
903_AIRTEX%20_pct_2F%20WELLS_7310014_1.jpg
 

Ant01n3

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Oct 31, 2017
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Its a 1993. Canister purge valve is removed for right now. So 85 can be ignored. When I aquire data from the QH using Tunerpro rt the dash shows me what the eec sees. It shows a fuel error. So I figured the lean condition is a legit lean condition because of the fuel pressure issues. O2 sensors are new and voltages on both o2 appear to fluctuate like they are supposed to. The o2 orange ground wire is grounded to the firewall. Fuel pump also is new. I just changed that a few days ago. I'm leaning towards fpr right now. I suppose i would not get a cylinder balance pass if it was the injectors?
 

jrichker

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Its a 1993. Canister purge valve is removed for right now. So 85 can be ignored. When I aquire data from the QH using Tunerpro rt the dash shows me what the eec sees. It shows a fuel error. So I figured the lean condition is a legit lean condition because of the fuel pressure issues. O2 sensors are new and voltages on both o2 appear to fluctuate like they are supposed to. The o2 orange ground wire is grounded to the firewall. Fuel pump also is new. I just changed that a few days ago. I'm leaning towards fpr right now. I suppose i would not get a cylinder balance pass if it was the injectors?
If an injector is inoperative, the cylinder balance test will not show a RPM change when the injector is turned off when it is tested.
 

Ant01n3

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Oct 31, 2017
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I'm pretty sure my lean condition is fuel related. When I cycle the ignition the fuel pressure will not hold. Yet I can enough pressure for the engine to start. When I get home from work tonight. I'm gonna try and clamp the return line and see if pressure holds then.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
Mod Dude
Aug 25, 2016
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When you turn the ignition on and do not start the engine the fuel pressure will drop, you may need to hook up a temporary fuel pressure gauge and zip tie it to a wiper arm to monitor the pressure while driving.
 

Ant01n3

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Oct 31, 2017
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When you turn the ignition on and do not start the engine the fuel pressure will drop, you may need to hook up a temporary fuel pressure gauge and zip tie it to a wiper arm to monitor the pressure while driving.


Yes I currently have a fuel pressure tester taped to the windshield. When I tried this, I was getting a fuel pressure drop under load. So I thought it was the pump. So I replaced the OEM pump with a Walbro 255. The pressure was steady while driving but I still have bucking and misfiring under load and I instantly lose pressure when I turn the ignition off.

I spent some time with the car today, I had my wife prime to ignition when I clamped the return line. I got 70 psi then in it drops instantly to 0. Then I kept the return clamped, had her prime the system then I clamped the supply line. It holds better starting at 70 psi then slowly drops to 0 psi in about 10 seconds. Quick but not instant.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
Mod Dude
Aug 25, 2016
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polk county florida
The fuel pressure will drop with the key on and the engine not running. Your problem sounds like a lean condition in cruise, the purge canister ( that you do not have ) enriches the fuel mix in cruise mode.
i'm not familiar with the moates system.
i will say I think that orange wire needs to be grounded to the block not the firewall.
 

Ant01n3

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Oct 31, 2017
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Update: If anyone following with similiar issues I found out yesterday while working on the car injector #3 appears to be stuck open. When I prime the system there is a very loud and distinct suction noise coming from that injector. Probably the cause of all my issues.