Need advise on camshaft and setup.

[xc600]

Background:
A former friend was building a 302 for me and spec'd out a cam that he had at his shop. We were originally going to use an old 1985 flat top piston H.O. motor that was still in good shape. The cam was a Lunati 51023, basic hi-po replacement cam for the 5.0L from what I gather.
I had purchased a set of Y303 FRPP heads and 1.7 Cobra roller rockers. We mocked everything up and determined that with the cam and rockers we did have clearance with the OE flat top pistons, but we had them "eyebrowed" anyway.
The motor never went together and I no longer talk with the engine builder.

Fast forward to now:
I just recently purchased a 1995 GT and I have all these parts just screaming to go together and make some noise.
My main question is, do you think I can still use the Lunati cam in the 95 5.0L considering the pistons are already "eyebrowed" from the factory now? I still have my Y303's, 1.7 rockers, tall covers, new timing chain, etc that I'd like to use too.

Here's the dilemma: In order to use these parts I'd really have to also buy a new upper and lower intake, MAF, injectors, maybe throttle body, RIGHT???? We're talking quite a bit of coin just to use the parts I already have, RIGHT?
Or...............I do what the original plan included and screw on the Performer RPM and carb that I have already on the shelf and go oldschool.

Please don't beat me up too bad, this has been bothering me since I started looking at parts in the garage once I came home with this car. I have the cam specs if someone knows more about them then I do and can work the numbers and see if it'll work. The info is also available on the Holley website as well. I thought at the very least I could mock the cam and heads up on the shortblock in the car with some clay and check to be sure, but maybe someone has already done it once before.
Let me know what you think or if you have any questions.
Thanks

 

[xc600]

ttt
Any cam experts out there??

 

[Blandnuts]

You would still need to check piston to valve clearance with that combo.

Yes, you would want to buy a tb, intake and injectors to get the full potential of your combo...

I'm not familar with your cam, what are the specs?




Fred

 

[xc600]

Cam card info for Lunati 51023

Here's the info from the cam card:

Lift @ valve .522 in .522 ex

Duration @ .050 lift 215 in 224 ex

Advertised duration 268 in 279 ex

Lobe separation of 112

Mind you these number are with 1.6 ratio rocker arms, and I would like to use the 1.7 ratio arms that I have.
When we mocked this cam up we did it with the 1.7 ratio arms and I'm almost positive that we had room with flat top pistons. When we did have the pistons fly cut the amount of material that was removed really doesn't look much different than a stock 5.0L piston does now, only the eyebrows are only on one side.

How hard would it be to mock up this cam with clay in the vehicle if I decide to do a head/cam/ intake job on it??

 

[ninety15.0]

Thats a pretty large cam given the fact that you want to use the 1.7's. Thats an effective lift of .554 so you will most definitely have to check the PV clearance. I think you could run those heads and cam on your combo with the stock MAF and TB....but an intake would almost be a must to take advantage of the Heads and Cam. that 94-95 intake is horrible...esp b/c of that elbow adapter.

 

[xc600]

Intake

If I could get by with just buying an upper and lower intake I be happy, but if I then need injectors, TB, etc, I'll just convert it to carb and call it done.

 

[vristang]

How hard would it be to mock up this cam with clay in the vehicle if I decide to do a head/cam/ intake job on it??

Lift has little impact on PtoV clearance, as the valve should be closed by the time the piston hits TDC.
Timing of the valve events is more critical for PtoV clearance.

It isn't hard to mock it up... Pull the intake, head, and install the new cam.
Put the clay on the top of the piston and put the head back on. SLOWLY rotate the motor over, then pull the head.

I'm sure I'm leaving out some 'details' but that is majority of the work.



If you are considering carb, then just make the change now. It doesn't sound like you have any interest in learning about efi enough to modify it. You may be happier going carb???


good luck,
jason

 

[ninety15.0]

You can definitely get away with the stock MAF, INJ, and TB. I think by the time you buy a carb and lower intake manifold you would have spent just as much as if you just bought a nice trick flow or edlebrock manifold. Im not saying that you're setup will be optimal. Im sure you would make more power with a 65mm fox TB conversion, a 80mm MAF, and 24# injectors. But they arent necessary and they ARE expensive.

 

[xc600]

Mock up w/new cam

I figured that the mock up with the clay would be similiar to how we did it on the stand, I just wasn't sure if there were any tricks to doing it.
I have a friend that I'd enlist to help me, he's got more background in it then I do.

Jason,
It's not that I'm not interested in learning more about injected engines, it's just that I don't think I have a budget to support it. I already have an intake and carb for the second engine I have, that would work just fine on my currently running engine. What I didn't want to get into was letting all these parts just gather dust on the shelf because in order to get any benefit out of them I'd have to invest an additional $1000 or maybe more.
I like the way the injection works on my car now, throttle response if great now that I replaced the original H pipe with an X pipe last night after doing my clutch. My main goal would be to use my parts on my current setup with a carb and see how they do. What I don't want to do is hack the car up in the process in case I ever want to go back to F.I.

 

[ninety15.0]

Well if you go to carb....i would expect that great throttle response to go down the pooper...along with any shred of decent gas mileage.

 

[xc600]

Keeping it injected

Ninty1 5.0,
Would the stock computer support a build like that??
Hearing that the TB, MAF, and injectors will work (albiet slightly undersized for the build) you have my curiosity peaked?
I'm not totally against keeping the car injected, I just didn't want the upgrade in parts to break the bank.
If I was to keep it injected and use most of my stock parts initially, I could always upgrade the items at a later time.
Would the FRPP Cobra manifold for the 94-95 SN be a viable option if I was to start looking? I realize I have issues to deal with when it comes to the elbow adapter if I was to try and go with another year manifold.

 

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

You've got plenty of cam, you don't need 1.7 rockers, that's just going to add more strain to your valve geometry and take away PTV clearance that you don't have to spare. Still, you can use an X303 cam on stock pistons with 1.6's and i believe that's a .542 lift, so the cam you have with 1.6s should be just fine, but you should still check the clearance. With the 1.7 rockers, that bumps you up into Z303 range which you can't use with stock pistons unless you wanna cut'em for extra valve clearance which is a bad idea IMO.

 

[xc600]

1.7 rockers

I want to use the 1.7 ratio rockers since I already have them. I'll take the additional geometry issues over reusing the stock non roller arms.

What I guess I need to know next is whether or not the stock pcm would support this type of a build and whether or not the FRPP 94-95 Cobra upper and lower would be a viable option rather than a swap to carb.

 

[rj95svt]

The 94-95 cobra intake would be a great choice! The combo you are looking to put together would work well. The cam deffinatly need the ptv clearence checked though. I'm not sure if that cam will clear but it will be close. As far as the injectors, maf, throttle body, maf, and the computer are concerned well thats another story. As you probably know the stock 94-95 computer doesn't play to well with aftermarket cams. Not to say yours won't idle and run fine but I'm thinking to get the most out of it and best driveability you will need a custom tune IMHO. you will be at the limit of the stock injectors but they will work until you can get a set of better injectors. The same goes for the maf and throttle body. The only real issue I see is the cam and stock 94-95 computer. Some people just swap to the A9L but there are other things that have to be done with that which I don't know the specifics of.

 

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

I want to use the 1.7 ratio rockers since I already have them. I'll take the additional geometry issues over reusing the stock non roller arms.

What I guess I need to know next is whether or not the stock pcm would support this type of a build and whether or not the FRPP 94-95 Cobra upper and lower would be a viable option rather than a swap to carb.

They'll be fine, i'm just not a fan of them Ford even used them on the '93 Cobra so it's not like they're destructive or anything, i just prefer to use the cam for lift. Just make sure you check your piston to valve clearance. anything close to .550 lift is really pushing your luck on stock pistons.

 

[xc600]

Mock up

I will mock this build up before I even consider bolting things together.
I'll try and get a pic of my flat top stock pistons and post it then everyone can see how much we had cut out of them. It's not much, and that was on a flat top. That's why I think even with the stock pistons I'll be alright, considering we mocked it up WITH the 1.7 rockers.
I've heard that the 94-95 pcm's don't play well with aftermarket cams, one of the guys from FRPP told me as well. That's why he suggested using my parts minus the cam and just building it with the stock cam that came in my 95 GT. Not sure how stout it would be, but with the 1.7's it would have a little help at least.

 

[xc600]

piston pics

Here is the machining we had done to the flat top 1986 stock pistons in order to add additional clearance for the Lunati cam. Mind you, I'm almost sure we had clearance without doing the machine work.

 

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

You might have had clearance on any other year piston but the '86....because those don't come with ANY valve reliefs....it's kind of the "86 curse" and you'll see a thread about it almost once a month, someone asking if they can use whatever cam and then having to be told about the pistons in their car....

Since those pistons are probably the exact same casting as the '85 and '87+ only minus the reliefs, i think you'll be alright with the cut reliefs. Personally i just get nervous about the idea of taking away material from a piston that isn't bullet proof to begin with ya know? I've seen pistons break right at the outter eyebrow area of the intake relief. Either way it's a good idea to still check the clearance....it's only like a 5 minute check.