Need Help ASAP

ajc7755 · Jun 22, 2004

Ok sorry for the rush, but I need to fix whats wrong so I can drive my car to a jobsite tommorow. Heres the deal:

Got Check Engine Light
Ran Codes
111 on KOEO - So all good there
172, 136, and 632 on KOER
172 - Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen (HEGO) sensor - voltage signal indicates lean (Bank #1)
136 - Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen (HEGO) sensor - voltage signal not switching during Engine Run Self-Test Indicates "lean" (Bank#2)
632 - Overdrive Cancel Switch (OCS) - no switch detected during Engine Run Self-Test

632 probably came up because I forgot to hit the OD button druing the test, so no worries there. But 172 and 136 are a bad O2 sensor right? I kinda guessed this because the CE light only comes on after 5 minutes of driving, which is when the car is warmed up and the O2 sensors are used to check fule mixture.

My question is this : Is this a bad O2 Sensor? And do they codes indicate which side the bad one is on?

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help.

Lostcause · Jun 22, 2004

Bank one if I remember is driver and bank two is passenger. So is the code is for both your o2's are shot. This is rare but does happen it happend to me and the car would die. Hope this helps. Did this happen when you put the headers and prochamber? Or was these mods done a while ago and just recently these codes came up.

mo_dingo · Jun 22, 2004

632 means your didn't cycle the overdrive switch during the KOER test. Don't worry about it.

The code 136 = HEGO indicates lean condition, left side. You said 136= voltage signal not switching, which is wrong.

The 136 & 172 codes mean that both banks are running lean. This means that another sensor is causing the car to run lean (i.e. MAF, IAT, ECT).

The O2's are probably working just fine, doing their job in telling you that you are running lean.

Here is a link to code listings.
Scott

ajc7755 · Jun 22, 2004

Ok went to AutoZone and of course they gave me the wrong O2 sensor. So I pulled both sensors and checked wire integrity and wiring, all seemed fine. Put them back in and check codes again. Still got 136 but instead of the 172, got a 182 (Both people standing there counted 8). According to this book it means that Bank #1 is running rich (Adaptive Fuel Rich Limit Reached) but this number is not in the link you posted.

In what order should I go about checking the other sensors you mentioned? Thanks

mo_dingo · Jun 22, 2004

First off, did you clear the codes before you ran them again? If you didn't clear the codes, you will see "old" codes that may not be valid anymore. Just wanted to ask.

What are the symptoms of the problem? Does the car run fine at any point. Does it get worse when the car is warmed up fully? Will the car not start at all?

Adaptive fuel limit means that the computer cannot add enough fuel to stop it from running lean. My guess is one of the main sensors is bad, or your fuel flow isn't 100%.

Since you aren't getting any other codes, you might want to have your fuel pressure tested ($20), or buy the kit at autozone ($40).

Next you will need to test the MAF/ECT/IAT/TPS sensors. Read through the Haynes/chilton manual on testing procedures.

Mu fuel pressure was 28psi w/ vacuum, and 36psi with vacuum. TPS voltage = .866V w/ throttle closed, and 4.66V w/ throttle all the way open.

ajc7755 · Jun 23, 2004

I come to find out today, that my father put fuel injector cleaner in my car while I was out on the weekend. The problem seemed to happen right after I filled up my tank and drove. Could this have an effect on all this bs my car is putting out? I don't think its bad 02, as I just put new ones in last year when I installed the longtubes. Any Ideas?

Car runs as it always has. The check engine light doesnt come on untill about 5 minutes into driving. No difference in running when it comes on. There is not startup problems. Ran the codes again today and got the same 136 and 172 I keep getting. Ill try clearing the codes, but I haven't fixed anything to make them go away so I don't think it will work. If that doesn't work, guess I will check the sensors, and return this wrong 02 Sensor and have my fuel pressure checked.

Thanks again for the help.

mo_dingo · Jun 23, 2004

Well now I am thinking it's your O2 sensors. Since the CEL doesn't come on until a few minutes after starting the car, my guess is that when the car full warms up, it begins to read from the O2 sensors. Since the exhaust system needs to be hot for the O2's to warm up, it takes time.

My guess is the fuel injector cleaner has clogged your O2 sensors. Buy some electrical cleaner, and spray them down. Let them dry, and re-install. See what happens.

Is there anything in the haynes manual about cleaning O2's? Do a search here, you might find something. Also, someone might see this and give some input.

But I know Electrical parts cleaner will be safe for the O2's, but I don't know if that will clean them enough.
Scott

ajc7755 · Jul 4, 2004

Ok well I figured I might as well wait until I burn through the tank of gas with the fuel injector cleaner in it and see if that helped. Well I dropped the Check Engine sometimes, meaning it comes and goes, but now my car surges at stop lights. Gonna try checking the MAF tommorrow, any other suggestions? Thanks

HISSIN50 · Jul 5, 2004

about the lambdas, have you checked the voltages yet? Haynes outlines it (normally from 0.1 to 1.0 volts is good, higher voltage is richer). when they get old, they are slower to react to change (hysteretic).

some guys have said they cleaned them with a torch. ahhhh, i dont know about that. i like Scott's electrical cleaner idea.

good luck.

ajc7755 · Jul 5, 2004

Well the thing is there not old. Just replaced them last year, so I don't want to believe that they would go that bad already espically from a product (fuel injector cleaner) that says 02 safe.

HISSIN50 · Jul 5, 2004

i hear ya. i guess it would be something to remember to check if problems persist.

i generally dont think that the O2's would both read bad, esp. being so new. as Scott said, i think it could be a primary fuel problem - checking the FP would be great. but i also trust Scott more than me, esp with the puter stuff. im old school and hate puters and sensors.

good luck.

mo_dingo · Jul 5, 2004

It won't take much buildup to cause the O2's to screw up. They are simple to remove, and it will be next to free to check it out.

But if the car acts perfectly normal when it's cold, but when it fully warms up, it begins to have problems, that points right to the O2 sensors.

That is the only major change when the car warms up. It begins to read from them, so if they are clogged, it could read lean or rich.

Try getting some electrical parts cleaner, clean the o2 sensors, and see what happens. If it doesn't do anything, try cleaning your MAF sensor with the electrical parts cleaner & a q-tip. Do a search on this forum for the phrase "clean MAF" and you will come up with the necessary information. You will need a (T-20, I think) torx bit to remove the back plate.
Scott

HISSIN50 · Jul 5, 2004

im a little foggy on what the symptoms are with the car, but, if the lambdas are reading out of spec, the puter should go into a default mode and run fine. the o2's will trim the fuel, but i dont know that you would feel anything. keep an eye on your milage - if it drops, that would confirm what Scott is saying.

i say this since it sounds like you are really gung ho about fixing it - cant blame you. if there is no drivability issues, i dont know that i would till i was inspired or doing other work.

ajc7755 · Jul 6, 2004

Yeah, I am really gung ho about fixing things, I want everything to be perfect. Well so this weekend I replaced the O2 Sensors and the MAF. Check engine comes on about after 2 minutes of driving, but then the light goes off if I stay about 65 miles per hour on the highway. I get surging while sitting in D at stop lights, and it died when I pulled into a parking lot today.

So whats the next sensor I should check? Still getting the same codes, thanks for the help guys.

HISSIN50 · Jul 6, 2004

i did not re-read the whole thread again (no time). the other thing that comes to mind (take this for what it is worth since i may have forgotten something in your thread) is a problem with the EGR. EGR is another one that will toss the CEL (sometimes) when it malfunctions. it is active at part throttle - introducing spent gasses into the chambers to cool the chambers and improve economy (the puter jumps timing when the EGR is active, since the spent gasses dilute the charge, thus creating a slower burn).

the EGR works at part throttle. there is a solenoid for it - computer controlled. a quick test is to grab a vac line off something unimportant (not the fuel pressure regulator, etc) and connect vac to the valve at idle. since you will be introducing a diluted mix at idle, when it should not be present, the idle should deteriorate. if it does, the valve is working at least some of the time. if the idle stays the same, that suggests there is a malfunction in the EGR circuit. the car can die if the gasses are introduced at idle.

normally a code will be tossed but not always. just something to keep in mind.

now that you have replaced parts, have you disconnected the battery/reset the KAM so you can pull codes again to see what it is telling you now?

random thoughts. good luck.

mo_dingo · Jul 6, 2004

Like JT said, if you didn't, you need to leave the battery disconnected for a few minutes. This will clear the codes and let the computer relearn from its new sensors. Hopefully this will solve your problem.
Scott

Yellow302 · Jul 7, 2004

sound like thats stock fuel pressure you have.

I would put it up to 38-40 PSI without vac. start at 38 that should richen it up. Sensors might be fine.

After I swaped my tranny, (took the H-pipe out) and sensors to swap them, and they are very fragile they mecanic damaged one and was setting off the light.

ajc7755 · Jul 7, 2004

Heres the update -

Got a fuel pressure guage. Hooked it up to the release valve. It read 40 PSI with vacum and 27 without. While I was at it, I replaced the fuel filter just in case.

Checked the ECT, IAT, and TPS, all checked out according to my Chiltons guide.

Then I got down to the MAF. According to the Chiltonsguide, you take off the connecter and check A-B and C-D. Well A-B was aroudn 15 VDC, the guide says it needs to be at least 10.5 VDC, so all good there I guess. Then I checked C-D on the connecter, and it read around 5 VDC. The guide says its supposed to be between 0.34 and 1.96 VDC. So this is obvisously wrong. Well I had another MAF laying around so I slapped that on, and it is reading the same.

Any ideas? Because I am lost. Thanks for all the help so far.

HISSIN50 · Jul 7, 2004

im confused - the FP should be higher with no vacuum, as i recall. in any case, i dont think you should see 27 PSI at any time. if it read that with no vacuum, you would lean out at WOT (when there is very little vacuum). feel free to dispute my thoughts, but this is what popped up in my lame brain. (and it would cause a lean condition at higher RPM, close to WOT situations - note the O2's are not used under WOT).

good luck.

mo_dingo · Jul 7, 2004

If you connect a voltmeter to A & B, you are basically reading directly from the batter. A is VPWR, a direct source of current. B is GND, direct source of ground. If the car is running while you probe A & B, you should read anywhere from 13.5V and up. If it's off, it should be above 12V, but anything above 10.5V is sufficient.

When you connect the DVM to C-D, you should check the ohm reading also. According to my book, it should be 10,000 ohms or greater.

I am a little confused as to the proper procedure, but lets test a few things.This is all from Ford Fuel Injection & electronic engine control by Charles Probst. C is MAF RTN, which is the Signal return. D is the MAF SIG, which is signal to EEC-IV module. D is the source of voltage that you need to measure, I imagine.

On your DVM, hook up positive to D, and ground to B. Then start the car. I have some values that you should expect. At idle, you should see around .6V. Then open the throttle slightly. The voltage should increase slightly. There is no engine load, so the amount of air sucked by the motor will be less than while in motion.

But if D-B, if it's reading 5V with the engine running at idle, you have a serious problem. The MAF is definately bad. Get a brand new one from autozone. A 87-93 MAF will work, but you may need to modify your air inlet tube or filter. There was a thread about this earlier; If you do a search, you should find it.
Scott

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