Engine Need help! hot start problem 88 lx

Peewee1320

New Member
Feb 20, 2019
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Virginia
I have a 88 fox body that I have been chasing a problem with for awhile. When it’s cold, it runs and idles perfect, once it gets to tempature it won’t start. Just need some guidance as I try to work this out.

It is a 331 stroker, n-41 cam, gt40p heads, 24# injectors with matching maf (did the conversion kit), 70 or 80mm tb and some other small things I’m sure.

Replaced almost everything on it, I did have to add a adapter to the ect sensor so it would fit my intake though.

Let’s start at the beginning though, when I try to read codes with the test light, all I get is a steady light, no flashing or anything. Also when i turn the key on I don’t get any check engine light, only time that comes on is when I am cranking it to start. I have replaced the 2 16v capacitors on the ecu that we’re burnt but still the same thing and still cant dump any codes. Thoughts or ideas? Thanks
 
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I have a 88 fox body that I have been chasing a problem with for awhile. When it’s cold, it runs and idles perfect, once it gets to tempature it won’t start. Just need some guidance as I try to work this out.

It is a 331 stroker, n-41 cam, gt40p heads, 24# injectors with matching maf (did the conversion kit), 70 or 80mm tb and some other small things I’m sure.

Replaced almost everything on it, I did have to add a adapter to the ect sensor so it would fit my intake though.

Let’s start at the beginning though, when I try to read codes with the test light, all I get is a steady light, no flashing or anything. Also when i turn the key on I don’t get any check engine light, only time that comes on is when I am cranking it to start. I have replaced the 2 16v capacitors on the ecu that we’re burnt but still the same thing and still cant dump any codes. Thoughts or ideas? Thanks
I have also searched and searched on the forum for the problem, didn’t want to bring back a old post
 
Sometimes it can be as simple as missing ground wires or inadequate grounds/starter wires. Sometimes it can be an issue with timing,fuel trim,Tfi module etc.

I’m going to drop a very daunting checklist on ya. There is a Ton of information in it,some of it won’t have to do with your problem. But if you make your way through what’s relevant to you-I’m sure you will find your issue

Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected 5.0 Mustangs model years 1986-1995

A word about this checklist before you start: it is arranged in a specific order to put the most likely failure items first. That will save you time, energy and money. Start at the top of the list and work your way down. Jumping around will possibly cause you to miss just what you need to see to find and fix the problem. Don’t skip any steps because the next step depends on the last step working correctly.

Revised 26-Jul-2017 to add fuse link diagram.

All text applies to all models unless stated otherwise.

Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red

1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch to the Run position. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.

No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD, Crane, or other ignition box if present - Bypass it and return to stock configuration if possible. Do this as a temporary measure to eliminate it as a possible problem source.
B.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking.
C.) TFI module: use a test light to check the TFI module. Place one lead of the test light on the red/green wire on the ignition coil connector and the other lead on the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector. If the TFI is working properly, the test light will flash when the engine is cranked using the ignition switch.
D.) Coil
E.) No EEC or computer power - EEC or computer relay failure
86-93 models only: EEC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
Both 86-93 and 94-95 models: No 12 volts with the ignition switch in the run position on the fuel injector red wires. The relay has failed or there is no power coming from the ignition switch. Make sure that there is 12 volts on the red/green wire on the coil before replacing the relay.
F.) No EEC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. Look for a 20 gauge blue fuse link connected to 2 black/orange 14 gauge wires.
94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition switch with it in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position at the ignition switch but not at the coil, then the fuse or fuse link is blown.
Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp [fuse
H.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery.
In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
I.) Computer. Don’t replace the computer just because you don’t understand how it works. Computers seldom fail, it usually is a sensor or wiring problem that causes the problems.
J.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges.
K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red/blue wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI.
See the Ignition switch wiring diagram for more information on the ignition wiring fuse link because it is the next thing to be tested. You will need a Multimeter or DVM and know how to use the Ohms function to check continuity between the red/green wire on the ignition coil and the red/green wire on the ignition switch. Make sure that the ignition switch is in the off position when you do the check. You should see less than 1 Ω (Ohm) between the red/green wire on the coil and the red/green wire on the ignition switch. More than 1 Ω means that the fuse link may have blown open and needs to be replaced. If you get 1 Ω or less means the fuse link is OK and the ignition switch is bad.

Wiring Diagrams:

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Engine Information Everyone should bookmark this site.

Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 94-95 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/94-95_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif


AutoZone wiring diagrams: You can navigate to the diagrams yourself via Repair Info | AutoZone.com and select the car year, make, model and engine. That will enable you to bring up the wiring diagram for your particular car.

2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability: [/b]
A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil

3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.

Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.

Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 2-4 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the EEC test connector and jump the connector in the Upper RH corner to ground. The EEC connector is near the wiper motor and LH hood hinge.

attachment.php?attachmentid=68357&stc=1&d=1322348015.gif


If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the Schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In a pinch, you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have. If you have any doubts about having sufficient fuel flow/pressure, rent a fuel pressure test gauge from the auto parts store. That will tell you for sure if you have adequate fuel pressure.


4.) No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) 86-90 models only: Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay.
91-93 models only Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
The fuse links for all model years 86-93 live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.

64326.gif


94-95 models only: 20 amp fuel pump fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the Dark green/yellow wire on the constant control relay module.
F.) Engine seem to load up on fuel and may have black smoke at the tailpipe. Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while the pump is running. If fuel is coming out the vacuum port, the regulator has failed. Check the regulator vacuum line for fuel too. Disconnect it from the engine and blow air though it. If you find gas, the regulator has failed.

5.) Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
A.) The PIP sensor in the distributor tells the computer when to fire the injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed.
A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the injector circuit to see if the injectors are firing. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and try to start the engine: it will flash if the injector is firing.

I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
B.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
C.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).

See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.
?temp_hash=3ef2497fff29a7a9daee955cf93e5805.jpg

The injector power pin is the VPWR pin in the black 10 pin connector.


D.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the EEC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
E.) TPS voltage exceeds 3.7 volts with the throttle closed. This will shut off the injectors, since the computer uses this strategy to clear a flooded engine. Use a DVM, a pair of safety pins, and probe the black/white and green wires to measure the TPS voltage.
On a 94-95 Mustang, probe the black/white and grey/white wires to measure the TPS voltage.
It should be .5-.1.0 volts with the key on, engine not running. Note that if the black/white wire (signal ground) has a bad connection, you will get some strange readings. Make a second measurement using the battery post as the ground to eliminate any ground problems. If the readings are different by more than 5%, you may have a high resistance condition in the black/white signal ground circuit.

6.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
A.) Failed IAB or improperly set base idle (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car. See the "Surging Idle Checklist for help with all your idle/stall problems.
B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently. If you removed the distributor, there is a good probability that you installed it 180 degrees out of time.
D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it, if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.
F. ) Engine that has had the heads off or valves adjusted. Do a compression test to make sure the valves are not adjusted too tight. You should have a minimum of 90 PSI on a cold engine.
 
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now When I do that check list, do I have to do it when the car is warmed up and not starting? It’s almost like something is failing when car is warmed up. I hear the fuel pump working and I know I have spark, I need to put the stock fuel lines back on it to test fuel pressure or buy a regulater with the valve. I will do the noid light test tonight.

But with that being said, I stopped messing with that check list and decided to see if I could pull any codes. Then i found out that the test light wouldn’t flash and just stay solid, also the check engine light won’t come on with the key on, you have to crank it and the check engine light will flash.

Which is kinda making me wonder if it’s a electrical issue
 
It really is very simple when the car won't start, do the checklist.

Start at the top of the checklist and work your way down. Don't skip around since you may skip the step that helps you find and fix the problem.
 
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Just out of curiousity, when it won't hot start, try starting it with the gas pedal pressed to the floor. This disables the injectors from firing and usually helps clear a flooded engine.

I had a bad ECT sensor cause a no hot start issue. Car did start with pedal to the floor.
 
Just out of curiousity, when it won't hot start, try starting it with the gas pedal pressed to the floor. This disables the injectors from firing and usually helps clear a flooded engine.

I had a bad ECT sensor cause a no hot start issue. Car did start with pedal to the floor.[/
Just out of curiousity, when it won't hot start, try starting it with the gas pedal pressed to the floor. This disables the injectors from firing and usually helps clear a flooded engine.

I had a bad ECT sensor cause a no hot start issue. Car did start with pedal to the floor.

When the car was around 180 degrees it just cranked with the pedal to the floor. After getting to the 3rd step on the list I decided to try to start it again. Temp was around 140ish if I had to guess. Not touching the pedal it just cranked, pedal to the floor I got it to start.

I ran a multi meter on the ect connector (green/yellow and black/white) with it pulled out and key on engine off and got 5.1 volts with the lead on the black wire and the grounded the other lead to the body. If I put Boths leads in the connector it only was like a .4 or something (power to power ground to ground.

Thoughts? And that is the right ect connector or is it the connector next to with with the red and yellow wires. I don’t know if that is the right way to check it or not
 

Code 21 or 116 – ECT sensor out of range. Broken or damaged wiring, bad ECT sensor.

Revised 6-Apr-2017 to add diagrams and resistance check for ECT wiring.

Note that that if the outside air temp is below 50 degrees F that the test for the ECT can be in error. Warm the engine up until you get good hot air from the heater and then dump the codes again.

The computer Engine Coolant Temperature sensor has absolutely nothing to do with the temperature gauge. They are different animals. The ECT sensor is normally located it the passenger side front of the engine in the water feed tubes for the heater. It has two wires that connect by a weathertight plastic connector.

The water temperature sender for the temp gauge is located in the driver's side lower intake manifold. It has a single wire that connects by a push on connector on the temp sender.


If you have replaced the ECT sensor and are still having ECT like problem symptoms, check the ECT wiring .

Computer wiring harness connector, wire side
71316.gif


Computer wiring harness connector, computer side
88243.gif



See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.
68512.jpg


Check the resistance of the green wire on the ECT connector to the green wire on pin 7 of the computer connector. You should see less that 1 Ω (ohm)

The ACT & ECT have the same thermistor, so the table values are the same

ACT & ECT test data:

Use Pin 46 on the computer for ground for both ECT & ACT to get most accurate readings.

Pin 7 on the computer - ECT signal in. At 176 degrees F it should be .80 volts

Pin 25 on the computer - ACT signal in. At 50 degrees F it should be 3.5 volts. It is a good number if the ACT is mounted in the inlet airbox. If it is mounted in the lower intake manifold, the voltage readings will be lower because of the heat transfer.


Voltages may be measured across the ECT/ACT by probing the connector from the rear. A pair of safety pins may be helpful in doing this. Use care in doing it so that you don't damage the wiring or connector.

Here's the table :

50 degrees F = 3.52 v
68 degrees F = 3.02 v
86 degrees F = 2.62 v
104 degrees F = 2.16 v
122 degrees F = 1.72 v
140 degrees F = 1.35 v
158 degrees F = 1.04 v
176 degrees F = .80 v
194 degrees F = .61
212 degrees F = .47 v
230 degrees F = .36 v
248 degrees F = .28 v

Ohms measures at the computer with the computer disconnected, or at the sensor with the sensor disconnected.

50 degrees F = 58.75 K ohms
68 degrees F = 37.30 K ohms
86 degrees F = 27.27 K ohms
104 degrees F = 16.15 K ohms
122 degrees F = 10.97 K ohms
140 degrees F = 7.60 K ohms
158 degrees F = 5.37 K ohms
176 degrees F = 3.84 K ohms
194 degrees F = 2.80 K ohms
212 degrees F = 2.07 K ohms
230 degrees F = 1.55 K ohms
248 degrees F = 1.18 k ohms

Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds

88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif


94-95_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Wiring_Diagram.gif[/

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds
(website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/

Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg
 
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At 160ish degrees I am getting -.09v on the ect connector with it plugged in key on motor off. I put red lead on green and black lead on black for ground like it said to do. Would that be a bad sensor or computer?
 
Ohms measures at the computer with the computer disconnected, or at the sensor with the sensor disconnected.

50 degrees F = 58.75 K ohms
68 degrees F = 37.30 K ohms
86 degrees F = 27.27 K ohms

104 degrees F = 16.15 K ohms
122 degrees F = 10.97 K ohms
140 degrees F = 7.60 K ohms
158 degrees F = 5.37 K ohms
176 degrees F = 3.84 K ohms
194 degrees F = 2.80 K ohms
212 degrees F = 2.07 K ohms
230 degrees F = 1.55 K ohms
248 degrees F = 1.18 k ohms

OP,

Check the resistance of the sensor at ambient temp...whatever that may be where you live. See if it matches the above readings
 
Also, when I did the maf conversion instructions from the kit I got from lmr. I was just reading and found something about the 02 sensor harness is different or something. How can I check if the signal return pin is fried also, I think it’s 46
 
...I hear the fuel pump working and I know I have spark, I need to put the stock fuel lines back on it to test fuel pressure or buy a regulater with the valve....
I went through all this, it's not electrical.
Did you replace FP & FPR?
If FP has no check valve, FPR needs one to prevent fuel drain back after engine shutdown.
Put fuel pressure gauge on schrader valve to see how long some pressure is maintained.
After shutdown, it should read about 20psi. It won't reach 0 for many hours.
Hot starts create a vapor lock.
Kirban FPR has anti-siphon valve.

If you put pedal to floor, it will start with huge amounts of black smoke out tailpipe & will take many months to flush out all the carbon from the exhaust.
 
It’s the stock fuel pump and stock regulater. The regulater. Sometimes it starts when you floor it sometimes it won’t, it does smoke a lot and smells really rich. I thought I had a stuck open injector and cylinders were filling up with fuel. But none of the sensors are reading right which is why I switched to electrical. I’ll check fuel pressure this evening
 
Also, when I did the maf conversion instructions from the kit I got from lmr. I was just reading and found something about the 02 sensor harness is different or something. How can I check if the signal return pin is fried also, I think it’s 46

That only comes into play if you've changed something on the car, like going from an AOD to a 5-spd and swapping the ECU's as well. If your car is an original 5-spd and the MAF conversion was done with an A9L, you are good to go.

If FP has no check valve, FPR needs one to prevent fuel drain back after engine shutdown.
Put fuel pressure gauge on schrader valve to see how long some pressure is maintained.
After shutdown, it should read about 20psi. It won't reach 0 for many hours.
Kirban FPR has anti-siphon valve.
.

Hmm. I never noticed any anti-siphon action with my Kirban. My check valve in my original pump failed many years ago (15 maybe?) and the pressure would drop to 0 immediately. Car started and drove perfectly fine and held 39psi. Had I not had a fuel pressure guage I would have never known the check valve failed.

Since been fixed with a new 190lph pump. Now holds pressure for a while after shutdown.