Need trans swap info

LedZ 5.0 · Jun 30, 2005

COBRAIIW, If you decide to use the factory II C4 with the specific II V8 bell the flexplate has 141 teeth. I know Sal knows that, he just got sidetracked between the II V8 automatic flexplate and manual flywheel.

The MII V8 factory manual flywheel has 148 teeth.

COBRAIIW · Jun 30, 2005

Looks like this old Mopar guy is gettin' his Blue Oval schoolin'

Got my head goin' 'round in circles!!!

Johan · Jun 30, 2005

Wart said:
When I wrote about the position of the weight I was referring to the weights distance from the center of the plate. The closer to the center the more mass needed to create a simular force as a weight placed farther from the center.

That would be clear if we bothered to use the right terminology for it. The late model flywheel is a 50oz-in, not a 50oz flywheel.
50 ounces x 1 inch from centerline = 50oz-in, or
25 x 2, or 10 x 5, or whatever it really is x wherever it really is = 50 ounce-inches.

I did a quick bit of searching, and almost everybody just says XXoz. It's kinda like saying I have 26lbs of air in my tires instead of saying 26psi.

COBRAIIW · Jun 30, 2005

Centerline of the crank, the flexplate, TDC? Which centerline?
This is turning into an engineering thread! YEAH !!!!

Blue Thunder · Jul 1, 2005

The centerline of the flexplate has to be the same as the centerline of the crankshaft, otherwise,(among other things) the starter would have serious issues with the ring gear.
The further you place the weight from the centerline of the flexplate, the more "weight" it has while spinning, due to its increase in leverage.

P.S. I couldve sworn the II had 143 teeth on the flexplate?? Well, anyway, close enough, damnit.

Wart · Jul 1, 2005

Johan said:
That would be clear if we bothered to use the right terminology for it. The late model flywheel is a 50oz-in, not a 50oz flywheel. 50 ounces x 1 inch from centerline = 50oz-in, or 25 x 2, or 10 x 5, or whatever it really is x wherever it really is = 50 ounce-inches.

I did a quick bit of searching, and almost everybody just says XXoz. It's kinda like saying I have 26lbs of air in my tires instead of saying 26psi.

I wasn't sure if I wanted to bring roe (radius) into this.

Formula for inertial force is F= (mass * velocity squared)/ radius , or F=MV^2/R

If you wish to find the mass needed to create an equivalent force at a different Radius:

m(1)v^2(1)/r(1)=m(2)v^2(2)/r(2)

Velocity is lineal and figured by pi * d. I think it's not necessasary to put time into the equasion as the period is the same.

IIRC

(something tells me I should work a few examples to make sure I DO remember correctly)

Wart · Jul 1, 2005

Blue Thunder said:
The centerline of the flexplate has to be the same as the centerline of the crankshaft, otherwise,(among other things) the starter would have serious issues with the ring gear.

It would certainly be an 'eccentric' ring gear.

Wart · Jul 1, 2005

COBRAIIW said:
Centerline of the crank, the flexplate, TDC? Which centerline?
This is turning into an engineering thread! YEAH !!!!

Centerline in the plane of rotation.

Dano78 · Jul 1, 2005

OK HERE IT IS, IN BLACK AND WHITE.

FLEXPLATE - Device used to start the engine with an AUTOMATIC trans and provides a coupling point via 4 studs to the torque converter.
FLYWHEEL - Device used to start the engine with a MANUAL TRANNY and provides a coupling point for the clutch assembly.

You will NEED to use THIS flexplate:
P/N B-23115 $143.33 (retail) $129.00(racer's net)
FORD FLEXPLATE 141 TEETH 50 OZ/SFI

It can be found on Art Carr's website at:
http://www.artcarr.com/catalog/ford-B-D-Y.php
or
http://www.artcarr.com/ - main page.

BE SURE YOU HAVE THE CORRECT TORQUE CONVERTER WHICH WILL HAVE A 9 1/4 BOLT CIRCLE THAT BOLTS IT TO THE FLEXPLATE.

IF the bolt circle on your torque converter is ANY OTHER PATTERN -STOP- let one of us know so we and re-direct you down the right path.

Also check the P/N on the Automatics's bellhousing if you not 100% sure it is a II bellhousing. Numbers should read D5ZP-7976-AA. To see these numbers, you'll have to remove the bellhousing from the tranny to see the numbers. (kinda stupid on Ford's part)

Also be sure to have the II specific block plate. OTHER PLATES WILL NOT WORK. The starter is clocked to a different position on the bell housing, so you will need the II plate with the II bellhousing.

May, but not 100% sure, need to change to correct starter aswell.

And that's that, plain as black and white...

Blue Thunder · Jul 1, 2005

I saw an alum flexplate listed on that site. I'm familiar with the alum flywheels, but I didnt realize they even made alum flexplates. Sounds scary.

Johan · Jul 2, 2005

Wart said:
I wasn't sure if I wanted to bring roe (radius) into this.

Formula for inertial force is F= (mass * velocity squared)/ radius , or F=MV^2/R

If you wish to find the mass needed to create an equivalent force at a different Radius:

m(1)v^2(1)/r(1)=m(2)v^2(2)/r(2)

Velocity is lineal and figured by pi * d. I think it's not necessasary to put time into the equasion as the period is the same.

We're in complete agreeance. Excuse a little nerdonics:

The v can be represented by 2*pi*r*rpm, giving v in in/min. In case 1 and 2, the rpm is the same, so,

m(1)*[2*pi*rpm*r(1)]^2/r(1)=m(2)*[2*pi*rpm*r(2)]^2/r(2)

m(1)*[2*pi*rpm]^2*[r(1)]^2/r(1)=m(2)*[2*pi*rpm]^2*[r(2)]^2/r(2)

Divide out the [2*pi*rpm]^2 from both sides,

m(1)*[r(1)]^2/r(1)=m(2)*[r(2)]^2/r(2), which simplifies to

m(1)*r(1)=m(2)*r(2)

or 50oz*1in=25oz*2in=10oz*5in=50oz-in.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

Dano78 · Jul 2, 2005

Sorry if I came out a little gruff. Usually I'm right up there with you guys, but I'll tell ya, you all were making scrambled eggs outta my grey matter over this topic and I just wanted to get him a simple solution so he can get on down the road with his project.

OTOH I didn't realize whe had quite the group of mathematicians!?!

COBRAIIW · Jul 3, 2005

Thanks guys, I decided to take the flexplate I have to a local machine shop to have it rebalanced to 50 oz.
He told me about 2 hrs, and 75 bucks.

Blue Thunder · Jul 3, 2005

COBRAIIW said:
Thanks guys, I decided to take the flexplate I have to a local machine shop to have it rebalanced to 50 oz.
He told me about 2 hrs, and 75 bucks.

That sounds fair, coolness.

Wart · Jul 3, 2005

COBRAIIW said:
Thanks guys, I decided to take the flexplate I have to a local machine shop to have it rebalanced to 50 oz.
He told me about 2 hrs, and 75 bucks.

I like it when people make the right decision.

Wart · Jul 3, 2005

Dano78 said:
That was probably me, Mark. (Ref: the ordeal of hte Art Carr flex plate.)

No, it wasn't you I was thinking of.

This means there is more than one of you with the same negative Art Carr experience. This is something we ought to keep in mind if thinking of doing buisness with that company.

Wart · Jul 3, 2005

Dano78 said:
Sorry if I came out a little gruff.

Gruff?

I thought you were being explicit.

And never apologise for doing something that's needed.

OTOH I didn't realize whe had quite the group of mathematicians!?!

Math is just another tool, one I wish I could use better.

COBRAIIW · Jul 4, 2005

Well, I finally got the trans out,counted 141 teeth on the flexplate.
Can't tell if it is 28 or 50 oz., but I also found that my neutral safety switch from the C4 doesn't have a working backup lights detent.but the park/neutral still works.
Price of a new one is around $35.
Pulled out the floor shifter plate and linkage,looks like it might just be a direct swap in.
So far so good,even the flexplate teeth look pretty good.
Off to the machinist tomorrow.
Happy Fourth of July guys!

COBRAIIW · Jul 5, 2005

Well, I dropped off the flexplate to the machinist this morning,pick it up wed. or thurs.
The parts guys are driving me nuts now,
I ask for a neutral safety switch for a 77 Mustang II with V8 Auto, and they keep saying it's a C3 trans.
Does a C4 with a II bellhousing make it a C3?

78CobraII · Jul 5, 2005

Nope...C3 is a light-duty auto trans usually used with the 2.3L and 2.8L engines, especially in later years of MII production.

Actually the C3 was probably used with all of the automatic trans 2.3L's during MII production, but there are 2.3L/C4 applications such as the Aerostar minivan.

I have heard of folks with the V6 having the C4, but later owners seem to report mostly the C3.

There were no factory 302's with the C3.

Need trans swap info

LedZ 5.0

now you have my pea brain going in circles

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