New Clutch/Flywheel...Bad Clutch Chatter

fasttback · Jun 25, 2006

I just finished my conversion from a C4 to toploader. I used the stock 157 tooth flywheel (resurfaced) and an aftermarket Hays clutch kit 85-211 (10.5" performance clutch and pressure plate).

The car has terrible clutch chatter taking off from a stop. Sometimes it's so bad it vibrates the whole car. At one point, I thought I forgot to tighten down the driveline. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th are fine. I played around with it on the road, seeing if it just needed some braking in, but it's still bad...so far.

Will this get better with time or is this the nature of a performance clutch?

D.Hearne · Jun 25, 2006

Most performance clutches are, lets say, "Grabby" at first. My CenterForce Dual Friction was for a week or more. But it acts fine now. Give it time. Practice trying to "slip it" for awhile. If it doesn't get better after about 100 miles, then you might need to do something else.

D.Hearne · Jun 25, 2006

Also, if you've got some steep gears in the rear, that will just compound things. Like 2.75's to 3.25's?

fasttback · Jun 25, 2006

D.Hearne said:
Also, if you've got some steep gears in the rear, that will just compound things. Like 2.75's to 3.25's?

Alright, I will drive it around town for a while (it's my Sunday car). I'm running 3.50 in the rear w/ 225 60 15". Besides the chatter...it's much better than the automatic.

dennis112 · Jun 25, 2006

fasttback said:
Will this get better with time or is this the nature of a performance clutch?

Not the nature of a performance clutch so from that standpoint you shouldn't have to live with it. Like Dhearne, I have a DF and just love it with my 4 speed. It also worked well with my previous 3.55 gears.

I am not familiar with the Hays unit you listed.

As mentioned drive it a few hundred miles to see if it will break in. Then see if it improves after some hard clutch slipping action.

Perhaps there are hot spots on the flywheel that weren't able to be removed with the resurfacing? I've also had new pressure plates that didn't grab properly and had to be exchanged.

gjz30075 · Jun 25, 2006

With a stick, you're putting some harsher action on the drivetrain to get moving that a torque converter would absorb. I'd check motor mounts. What actuation method do you have? Z-bar, hyd, or cable?

fasttback · Jun 25, 2006

gjz30075 said:
With a stick, you're putting some harsher action on the drivetrain to get moving that a torque converter would absorb. I'd check motor mounts. What actuation method do you have? Z-bar, hyd, or cable?

I'll check the motor mounts and recheck the trans mount.

For now, a freshly rebuilt z-bar setup. I reconditioned all linkage parts by adding weld material to the typical worn areas and filing down back to original condition. Also, added the roller bearing to the pedals and created a bronze bushing for the lower z-bar/clutch rod linkage. It's tight and straight.

gjz30075 · Jun 25, 2006

If the mounts check out ok, and you feel you have to pull the trans again (possibly leaking oil on disc?) check for excessive crank endplay.

SoCalCruising · Jun 26, 2006

Yeah, I was thinking of oil on the disc. Did you use sealant on the flywheel bolts?

fasttback · Jun 26, 2006

SoCalCruising said:
Yeah, I was thinking of oil on the disc. Did you use sealant on the flywheel bolts?

Yes, Permatex ultra black silicone and some red thread locker. The chatter also started the very first time I tried to back it out of the garage within minutes of firing it up, so I think it is unlikely that oil from the crank is the culprit...but I have been wrong before.

68RCodeConv · Jun 27, 2006

You have taken care of most of the things that cause clutch chatter. It can also be caused by weak rear leaf springs or bad U-joints. I suspect that it is the flywheel since it is the only used part in the equation.

gjz30075 · Jun 27, 2006

fasttback said:
I used the stock 157 tooth flywheel (resurfaced) and an aftermarket Hays clutch kit 85-211 (10.5" performance clutch and pressure plate).

Even though it was resurfaced, not all 'cuts' are the same and not all machines and operators are the same. As the previous poster mentioned, I think I'd look at another flywheel.

fasttback · Aug 20, 2006

After 200+ miles of hard city driving it still chatters...just a little less than before. So, this weekend I decided to pull the tranny to take a closer look. Here is a list of everything I checked so far:

flywheel bolts leaking oil = no
other sources of oil on clutch = no
motor or tranny mounts bad = no
drive line u-joints bad = no
rearend u-bolts loose = no
leaf springs bad = new 5-leafs
manual clutch linkage (z-bar) = tight with little play.
pressure plates bolts torqued to specs and did not bottom out.

So after all that I decided to do the dirty work. I took some pictures of the clutch, flywheel, and pressure plate for some feedback. See below.

<IMG src="http://home.pacbell.net/lorax1/fly01.jpg">
<IMG src="http://home.pacbell.net/lorax1/fly02.jpg">
Hot spots on outside edge?

<IMG src="http://home.pacbell.net/lorax1/clutch01fw.jpg">
Flywheel side. Only shows wear on the outside edge??
<IMG src="http://home.pacbell.net/lorax1/clutch02pp.jpg">
Pressure plate side.

<IMG src="http://home.pacbell.net/lorax1/pp.jpg">
Pressure plate looks ok besides wear only on top of pic and some old rust that did not come out with a fast cleanup.

dennis112 · Aug 21, 2006

fasttback said:
After 200+ miles of hard city driving it still chatters...just a little less than before. So, this weekend I decided to pull the tranny to take a closer look. Here is a list of everything I checked so far:

flywheel bolts leaking oil = no
other sources of oil on clutch = no
motor or tranny mounts bad = no
drive line u-joints bad = no
rearend u-bolts loose = no
leaf springs bad = new 5-leafs
manual clutch linkage (z-bar) = tight with little play.
pressure plates bolts torqued to specs and did not bottom out.

So after all that I decided to do the dirty work. I took some pictures of the clutch, flywheel, and pressure plate for some feedback. See below.

<IMG src="http://home.pacbell.net/lorax1/fly01.jpg">
<IMG src="http://home.pacbell.net/lorax1/fly02.jpg">
Hot spots on outside edge?

<IMG src="http://home.pacbell.net/lorax1/clutch01fw.jpg">
Flywheel side. Only shows wear on the outside edge??
<IMG src="http://home.pacbell.net/lorax1/clutch02pp.jpg">
Pressure plate side.

<IMG src="http://home.pacbell.net/lorax1/pp.jpg">
Pressure plate looks ok besides wear only on top of pic and some old rust that did not come out with a fast cleanup.

Hmm, interesting that the clutch disk is only being grabbed on the outside only. You might want to lay a straight edge across both the flywheel and the pressure plate and check for flatness.

Does the clutch disk move freely on the splines of the transmission?

Rust on the pressure plate can cause issues.

2nd Mustang · Aug 21, 2006

My first TWO clutches were brand Xs. They didn't last very long and were 10.5 inchers. I went to a hot rod shop for my new clutch and found out my 302 should be running a 10 inch clutch. I had them install a Centerforce II and it has performed flawlessly since. I haven't even had to adjust it yet. The flywheel looked like someone used a handfile when they machined it for the second clutch change! Good luck.

Steve69 · Aug 21, 2006

I also had the same problem that you had and I installed a centerforce
II and Ive had no problems what so ever. *********One thing to
check and this was the main problem with my first clutch is the Pressure plate bolts. I had bought some Mr gasket bolts when I intalled my first ram
clutch. After I did some checking the pressure plate bolts were slightly
to long. What this caused was a inproper torque and the pressure plate
was not tight on the flywheel. Install the pressure plate bolts alone and
make sure they'll tighten do the flywheel with out the the pressure plate
on. I think I could of installed my old ram clutch and I would of been
alright but I thought since I had it apart I would install a centerforce.
I would check the bolts. That was the problem with my chater and it
was really bad.

Hope this helps
Steve

fasttback · Aug 21, 2006

Yea...the outside clutch wear did catch my eye too. The pressure plate does show some unevenness. From the outside of the pressure plate to the inside there is 1/64" gap using a straight edge. Still need to crawl under the car to check the flywheel.

What flywheel(s) are you running with the Centerforce II clutches? 10.0" or 10.5"?

Opentracker · Aug 21, 2006

fasttback said:
Yea...the outside clutch wear did catch my eye too. The pressure plate does show some unevenness. From the outside of the pressure plate to the inside there is 1/64" gap using a straight edge. Still need to crawl under the car to check the flywheel.

What flywheel(s) are you running with the Centerforce II clutches? 10.0" or 10.5"?

I put three different clutches in our orange car before I got one that didn't chatter. A real PITA but I did fix it. Your pressure plate is the problem in my opinion. It should be flat as the flywheel and disk. That is an odd wear pattern.

John

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