new manual steering box or tcp manual r&p

Markus · Oct 27, 2009

Hello guys,

my old long shaft steering box is worn out and i have a lot of play in the steering wheel. Now is my question, should i buy a new flaming river steering box or should i go with a tcp manual rack and pinion conversion?
For less play in the steering is the r&p the way to go, is this right? What is with the smoothness? Old worm gear type or r&p.
Any experiences or ideas?
Do i get a problem with bump steer with the tcp r&p. At the moment i run the tcp bump steer elimination kit with success. Zero bump steer.

thanks

Markus

rebel65 · Oct 27, 2009

i would personally go with tcp at an engineering perspectice, but i am not convinced of their customer service atm.

hipo_p51 · Oct 27, 2009

stick with the steering box. i have heard good things about the flaming river stuff. from people i have spoken to, the r&p set up make it difficult to zero out the bump steer. i am sure you have read more stuff here, but these car have been raced very successfully with the stock steeringbox back in the day. but unless you need to see all that r&p stuff under your car, i would say forget it. spend all that cash someplace else. i believe it is not worth the all the time required.

5280/4 · Oct 27, 2009

rebel65 said:
i would personally go with tcp at an engineering perspectice, but i am not convinced of their customer service atm.

from my research and thinking. The main advantage of a R&P is clearance for headers. The TCP is not lighter than the stock box. The bump steer with TCP would be dialed out just like a stock box and center link. The other advantage is the rack ratio can easily be changed. Where the box is built around a certain ratio. However no rack on the market can maintain stock turning radius. With that being said TCP is the best rack and really the only one that should ever be considered.

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yeloxr7 · Oct 27, 2009

Forget the FR gearbox and get one from Borgeson. Better price and a much better product with good customer service and a longer warranty. Besides, they are a Stangnet sponsor and we should support them.....

Borgeson Universal Steering Components

Markus · Oct 28, 2009

Thank you guys for the comments. I think i go with a new 16:1 steering box. The guys in the early days race with the worm gear boxes. So they can´t be so bad.
The r&p stuff is also 2-3 times more expensive. The bad turning radius is a fat CONTRA too.

@yelorx7
thank you for the information. The boxes from borgeson are rebuild parts, fr are completely new. Long or no Warranty is no concern for me
I live in germany. If the box go bad i drop it in the trash and order a new one.
The shipping costs germany to usa and usa to germany is a new steering box

Markus

yeloxr7 · Oct 28, 2009

If you search this forum you will se many complaints regarding the "new" Flaming River boxes. They are made in Argentina. I read an article once that describes the process that Borgeson goes through when they remanufacture (not rebuild) their steering boxes. They use better materials than the original used for bearings and bushings and use very precise tolerances in the remanufacturing process. I bought one several years ago and have been very happy with it. You won't need to drop a Borgeson box in the trash and order another one.

65FBE2 · Oct 28, 2009

Well I have a RRS r&p system in two different cars and I have non of the problems listed with other racks. I do have RRS strut conversions on both cars also. This may be the reason that I have not experienced any turning radius issues. I can tell you that with the same steering input you currently use just to keep the car on the road, my cars would be in the ditch! The new r&p systems are that much better. Both my 65 mustangs had the 16:1 boxes and they were in good shape with little to no play. If a driver is what you want, then go with a r&p system RRS makes the best one but it costs more, Randal's Rack would be second on my list followed by TCP. Believe me I did a lot of research before buying

hipo_p51 · Oct 28, 2009

you will be happy. my car is a blast to drive. i have raced it a couple times and i see no reason for a r&p setup. new or rebuilt box will be fine. just make sure the rest of the front end is well sorted and you will have no probs.

Markus said:
Thank you guys for the comments. I think i go with a new 16:1 steering box. The guys in the early days race with the worm gear boxes. So they can´t be so bad.
The r&p stuff is also 2-3 times more expensive. The bad turning radius is a fat CONTRA too.

@yelorx7
thank you for the information. The boxes from borgeson are rebuild parts, fr are completely new. Long or no Warranty is no concern for me
I live in germany. If the box go bad i drop it in the trash and order a new one.
The shipping costs germany to usa and usa to germany is a new steering box

Markus

Markus · Oct 29, 2009

hipo_p51 said:
just make sure the rest of the front end is well sorted and you will have no probs.

The front end is completely new. Roller upper and lower control arms, roller spring perches, adjustable strud rods, new pitman arm, new inner and outer tie rods (with tcp bump steer eliminators)
The only old part is the steering box

@65fbe2
i looked for the rrs r&p too. But i´m afraid that my hooker competition long tubes do not fit.

Markus

5280/4 · Oct 29, 2009

65FBE2 said:
Well I have a RRS r&p system in two different cars and I have non of the problems listed with other racks. I do have RRS strut conversions on both cars also. This may be the reason that I have not experienced any turning radius issues. I can tell you that with the same steering input you currently use just to keep the car on the road, my cars would be in the ditch! The new r&p systems are that much better. Both my 65 mustangs had the 16:1 boxes and they were in good shape with little to no play. If a driver is what you want, then go with a r&p system RRS makes the best one but it costs more, Randal's Rack would be second on my list followed by TCP. Believe me I did a lot of research before buying

I am curious why you ranked the racks in that order. What was your desicion parameters? i have done a lot of research and TCP is the only one with the non OEM rack. That is why i chose TCP for my 65 mustang. The TCP rack is much stronger and it would seem to have less deflection. Plus it looks better than anything else. it looks well engineered and designed.

RRS uses a modified OEM rack dont they??

Randals is like any other rack that uses the J-car rack. and anyone can build a bolt in R&P like this. But it only has 5.5" of travel. Stock is 6.375" I dont like that at all.

The reason you have a quick steering in the RRS is because they use a shorter steering arm to maintain the same rack travel.

Can you please elaborate on your research and reasoning. Im just curious to see if i missed something in my research. As i plan on building my own rack next time. i will be using a custom crossmember and spindles to match the front suspension i built.

And in no way am i trying to be rude.

Tim65GT · Oct 29, 2009

Quote
"If you search this forum you will se many complaints regarding the "new" Flaming River boxes."

Really? , I don't recall any.

Since you have everything new already, I would replace the box. I have the Flaming River box and have had no issues. They include needle bearings where the factory box has bushings.

65FBE2 · Oct 30, 2009

The RRS does use a OEM rack and that is part of the advantage. If you need a rebuild it can be done at any shop. The RRS system totally eliminates bump steer and uses standard Ford tie rod ends. It maintains a correct Ackerman angle which is one of the problems of the cheap pinto style rack systems out there with the tie rods hanging out the end of the rack. It has what is called linear tracking, basically speaking the rack has a billet aluminum bar that is attached to the rack and the Ford inner tie rod ends attach to this. This reproduces the Ford factory spec for all steering geometry. This billet bar can be adjusted up or down to remove any bump steer. It is the only system that has AU D.O.T. approval. That does not mean allot here in the states until you understand why the Aussie's are so strict. It has to do with the billion miles of very bad road in the Aussie outback.
The header clearance is a little tight with some makes. I have hooker super comps and had to simply flat spot one tube slightly. They do not inter fear even if you don't flat spot the tube but the clearance between the tube and the plastic rack bellows is to close and it melts it. Any shorty or tri-y will work fine.
I liked Randal's Rack because it also has no bump steer issue and it is much better priced. They sell a complete kit including pump for a fair price and header fitment is not a problem. I don't like the goofy inner tie rod end they use.
As far as being stronger, I assume you mean between the frame rails. I would not what to use my rack as a structural component, better to reinforce the cross member by tyeing it to the lower control arm. Check how this was done on the Boss 302 cars or at Cobra Automotive.
So that was my reasoning. Doesn't mean I'm right but it made sense in my simple mind.

65FBE2 · Oct 30, 2009

I forgot to mention that after I decided on the rack, I choose to add RRS stuts also. It would not have made a lot of sense to have a different make rack with the RRS Struts. They are engineered to work together. I wanted a system that could be removed without any evidence of ever being there. My convertible is a fairly rare 65 GT and has collector value. I still wanted to enjoy driving the car and after driving my fastback with struts and R&P I was spoiled.

5280/4 · Nov 1, 2009

65FBE2 said:
The RRS does use a OEM rack and that is part of the advantage. If you need a rebuild it can be done at any shop. The RRS system totally eliminates bump steer and uses standard Ford tie rod ends. It maintains a correct Ackerman angle which is one of the problems of the cheap pinto style rack systems out there with the tie rods hanging out the end of the rack. It has what is called linear tracking, basically speaking the rack has a billet aluminum bar that is attached to the rack and the Ford inner tie rod ends attach to this. This reproduces the Ford factory spec for all steering geometry. This billet bar can be adjusted up or down to remove any bump steer. It is the only system that has AU D.O.T. approval. That does not mean allot here in the states until you understand why the Aussie's are so strict. It has to do with the billion miles of very bad road in the Aussie outback.
The header clearance is a little tight with some makes. I have hooker super comps and had to simply flat spot one tube slightly. They do not inter fear even if you don't flat spot the tube but the clearance between the tube and the plastic rack bellows is to close and it melts it. Any shorty or tri-y will work fine.
I liked Randal's Rack because it also has no bump steer issue and it is much better priced. They sell a complete kit including pump for a fair price and header fitment is not a problem. I don't like the goofy inner tie rod end they use.
As far as being stronger, I assume you mean between the frame rails. I would not what to use my rack as a structural component, better to reinforce the cross member by tyeing it to the lower control arm. Check how this was done on the Boss 302 cars or at Cobra Automotive.
So that was my reasoning. Doesn't mean I'm right but it made sense in my simple mind.

that absolutely makes sense. The only way to get the correct steering geometry with stock spindles is to duplicate the center link. Those three companies do that very well. I like that RRS uses aluminum but i like that TCP uses a custom rack. The by stronger i ment the rack was stronger. That it would deflect less under hard cornering. However i dont like that you have to remove the crossmember. That is why when i build my rack i will be changing the mounting locations so that i can retain the crossmember that i have in my falcon.

very good write up i really like you reasonings. My falcon wont be seeeing very many miles as it will be a track car with some street. So im not worried about some shop rebuilding it. I can always call TCP and get parts.

I am also contemplating designing some custom aluminum spindles and having the machined for me. This was i can really optimize the steering and geometry.

Im posting from my phone so editing is kinda hard.

In my tie rod design i am completly getting rid of those tie rods. I am switching to aluminum rod ends and drilling the spindle out. This way i am lighter and have more adjustablility.

To the OP,

i think you now have some good reasoning to base ur desicion on. Good luck and tell us what u decide.

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