Noisy Valvetrain after H/C/I install and I thought I did everything right

XERXES · Jul 20, 2009

On Tuesday 14th I started tearing my engine apart. By Thursday 16th I had it back together and Friday I started it back up. There is a problem. I'm hoping you all can help.

To preface: I have never taken apart a motor before. I did help my Dad with his 356's 1600 once. I've nearly taken every nut and bolt on this car out at one time or another(slightly exaggerating) but nothing in the engine bay except a battery, alternator and a CAI. I am very mechanically inclined so I did buttloads of research before tackling this project so I knew what to expect.

Here's what I've got. Car: 1995 Mustang GT Convertible I bought in 1999. Engine: Bone stock 1995 5.0 which has never been taken apart until last week. Ran like a scalded dog before but I wanted faster. Everything else: far from stock.

To which I added: 3 bar GT40 heads and stock stamped steel rockers (from 97 explorer),Trick Flow valve spring kit, Steeda #19 cam, 1993 Cobra U/L intake, Edelbrock 70mm TB, Summit shorty headers, Summit valve covers(cheap junk replacing asap) New Lifters stock style. Ford Racing Head/Valve Cover Gaskets/Felpro everything else

And Deleted: smog equipment (running a short belt)

Problem: The valvetrain is unusually noisy. Sounds like a sewing machine or my dads 356 porsche.

Lets break the potential valve train culprits down one by one.

GT40 Heads are off an explorer. Never been machined as far as i know. The guy I bought them from said they're right off an engine and have only been media blasted. Doubt they are the culprit.

Rockers are original explorer. Compared them to 1995 takeoffs and they look the same. Both sets have the number 5 stamped on them. I could have used my takeoffs but I didn't. Should I have? If they ARE different I sure couldn't tell and that could cause enough slack to make noise. It they are the same, Doubtful. If the Rocker the Fulcrum or even the U-Shaped bracket ARE different, Very Possible.

Valve springs are Trick flow for small-block Fords. I know little about them except I've seen them recommended on Stangnet and other places. I used the little metal bar that checks spring install height and it was spot on everytime. I installed them right I'm sure of it. Doubtful.

Valve Covers. I have taken the valve covers off and there was contact with the baffle so i ripped them out. Started it back up with no change in sound. I think there's more noise heard then if I had thicker/high quality covers. Doubtful

Lifters. Put new ones in. Thought they might be the culprit they weren't so I put the old ones back. Not the best idea but the originals had NO scoring on them and made me wonder why I even bought new ones in the first place(I was talked into it by a guy who knows Fords, 60's fords) Doubtful.

Steeda Cam. I am almost positive this has to be it. I've read one(!!) forum post that mentions the Steeda cam has a smaller base circle than stock cams. If so, why would Steeda sell it without mentioning that? Why wouldn't this be common knowledge? I've read MANY people say they installed the #19 with stock pushrods(like me) with NO problems at all. I called Steeda today they were absolutely NO HELP WHATSOEVER. I got the blow off and was told "We tell all our customers to check proper pushrod length when installing our cams" Bull****, it never says it in any of the papers receipts cam card I was sent and its nowhere on the website. The "Technician" I was speaking to said he really doesn't know much about 5.0's and that it's been a long time since he worked on one so I asked to speak to someone who does. Put on hold only to be told there's no one available. I really like Steeda and have the full G-Trac Suspension so when choosing a cam I thought, Hey, they know their **** what could go wrong? Well a lot apparently. I called to ask if they know if I need longer pushrods and if so what size. I couldn't even get that out of them.

I actually think there was play in some of the pushrods after I torqued down the rockers. I didn't know that was wrong I thought oil pressure would pump them up. I've never done this before though I had a lot of printed out instructions but little things like this I wouldn't know without experience.

After setting the TPS cleaning the IAC, fixing vacuum leaks, and setting the idle it idles right at 600 rpm. Yes I have driven it. Gutless from idle to 3000 then BOOM! Really powerful. Except for the low RPM power(lack of) it actually drives alright. But its noisy and I'm sure that's not normal.

So what do I need to do?

tealstang67 · Jul 20, 2009

sounds fishy to me. I would start with checking the pre load of the lifter if it is less the .20 then check pushrod length. Just my thoughts.

XERXES · Jul 20, 2009

tealstang67 said:
sounds fishy to me. I would start with checking the pre load of the lifter if it is less the .20 then check pushrod length. Just my thoughts.

I've tried two sets of lifters. Stock ones out of the same engine and 16 new "sealed power" units stock style from advance auto. No difference.

Pushrod length is what I'm leaning toward. Why can't I find information on this? All factory Ford parts, untouched and unmodded the one difference being aftermarket cam. I know someone has this combination of parts and hope they can tell me what length pushrods to get.

tealstang67 · Jul 20, 2009

I don't know anything about the cam but if i had to guess i would point at the cam if you can check the preload it will tell alot.

XERXES · Jul 20, 2009

tealstang67 said:
I don't know anything about the cam but if i had to guess i would point at the cam if you can check the preload it will tell alot.

Thanks. I don't really know what that means or how to do it. Can I ask for a explanation? Like how might this cause my problem. I'm open to ideas

tealstang67 · Jul 20, 2009

The proper way is use a dial indicator and check see how far the lifter compresses. I believe it is .30 or .35 thousandths. Someone else here will chime in and tell for sure. I have used a magnetic base and a cheap dial indicator put the engine to tdc on cylinder 1 losen the rockers off on cylinder 1 get the rocker to zero lash (no preload) then set your dial indicator up on the rocker arm at the same angle as the pushrod (as close to the pushrod as possible).Then you need to tighten the rocker as needed let the lifter decompress and see what the preload is. I am not great at explaining things i hope i didn't confuse you to bad. There is also probably better ways this is what a poor boy does (ME).:

Actually any cylinder will work for this i always use 1 for everything old habbits.

XERXES · Jul 20, 2009

tealstang67 said:
..Stuff..

Jesus this is beyond me. This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to AVOID by buying what I thought to be bog-standard interchangeable parts. I can turn a wrench but I'm not a mechanic.

Would someone with my problem please stand up?

edit: Oh yeah just remembered. There isn't a way to set lifter preload on stamped steel rockers I thought. Isn't that for roller rockers only? I just torqued them to 25 ft-lbs. Does your suggestion still apply?

tealstang67 · Jul 20, 2009

Push rod length i thought that was the question. It is really not that difficult though. I had to shim my yella terra rockers by .10 with stock e7s and a e-cam.
GOOD LUCK

final5-0 · Jul 20, 2009

tealstang67 said:
The proper way is use a dial indicator and check see how far the lifter compresses. I believe it is .30 or .35 thousandths. Someone else here will chime in and tell for sure. I have used a magnetic base and a cheap dial indicator put the engine to tdc on cylinder 1 losen the rockers off on cylinder 1 get the rocker to zero lash (no preload) then set your dial indicator up on the rocker arm at the same angle as the pushrod (as close to the pushrod as possible).Then you need to tighten the rocker as needed let the lifter decompress and see what the preload is. I am not great at explaining things i hope i didn't confuse you to bad. There is also probably better ways this is what a poor boy does (ME).:

Actually any cylinder will work for this i always use 1 for everything old habbits.

Yes ... this is it in a nutshell

I won't give specifics
but just tell it from a very basic ... how it is point of view

As was said ... it is all about preload OR the amount the lifter is depressed
just after all slack in the valve train is taken up

You see peeps talk about ... IIRC
reaching proper torque after 3/4 of a turn

The idea here is ... 3/4 of a turn just after all the slack is taken up would
put you at just about the right amount of distance to collapse the lifter
to yield quiet operation

If you don't compress the lifter enough you will have slack in the valve train
and obviously noise

If you compress the lifter too much then you run the risk of not allowing
the valve to fully close and burn the valve

With ped rockers you have two ways to deal with adjustments

Different length on the push rod
Shims of different thickness you put between the head and rocker

Just a few thoughts

Grady

XERXES · Jul 20, 2009

Forgive my ignorance. I love cars but most people here know way more than me when it comes to engines. A Dial indicator. A Magnetic Base. I wouldn't be able to identify them if you showed them to me.

I'm very green to engine building. I really was under the impression you just torqued the stock rockers down to spec unless they are adjustable roller rockers. Then you get to worry about Zero Lash and 1/2-3/4 turn and all that good stuff. I tried to keep this as simple as possible with my parts choices. I didn't want to deal with rockers and valve train geometry until the car was running reliably. Then I was going to buy some adjustable rockers and learn something new.

I may be wrong but I think the problem is too short of pushrods. Since shimming the rockers will just make there be more space I'm looking at needing longer pushrods, right?

But..... how long?

If Steeda is so well-known and popular(IMO) wouldn't this be standard information. Crane is the manufacturer they're well respected last I heard. I read an article online(5.0 magazine I think) This cam was designed around GT40 heads.

Do I really need custom pushrods for an off the shelf cam?

6.272 is stock do I go to 6.3's?

Has everyone who installed this cam or the Steeda #18 gone through this and is just keeping the answer to themselves?

Do I have an oddball Mustang from Mars?

Everything I've read says this combo should work no problem.

I appreciate any and all ideas keep em coming.

99FiveOh · Jul 21, 2009

I once installed a B cam into a '90 GT I had and it sounded like a sewing machine after the cam swap. I called a few different Mustang tuners/shops and they all said it was normal when using stock valve trains (namely the stock pedestals).

Can you get us a sound clip or vid and post it up for us?

Other than that, If the noise is too excessive, then you are on the right track. The pushrod is probably bouncing around in there from what you've explained.

Daves94vert · Jul 21, 2009

Out of curiosity, why didn't you upgrade your rockers while doing all this work? Crane makes a good set of rockers. Anyway, did you install your rockers while on the base circle of the cam? What was your process for installing the rockers. Your cam isn't the problem. To get proper pushrod length you need an adjustable pushrod( you can get one from summit or jegs). Get a sharpie and color the tip of the valve. Install the rocker arm with your stock pushrod and rotate the engine a couple of times by hand. Pull the rocker off and check the wear pattern on the valve stem. If it's centered then your stock pushrod is fine. If the pattern is biased toward the intake then you'll need a longer pushrod. If toward the exhaust side of the head then you'll need a shorter pushrod. Let us know what's up.

XERXES · Jul 21, 2009

This is NOT my car but it sounds just like it.
Index of /shoman96

file number 3

My Stang is in my garage across town and i will record one as soon as possible.

XERXES · Jul 21, 2009

Daves94vert said:
Out of curiosity, why didn't you upgrade your rockers while doing all this work? Crane makes a good set of rockers. Anyway, did you install your rockers while on the base circle of the cam? What was your process for installing the rockers. Your cam isn't the problem. To get proper pushrod length you need an adjustable pushrod( you can get one from summit or jegs). Get a sharpie and color the tip of the valve. Install the rocker arm with your stock pushrod and rotate the engine a couple of times by hand. Pull the rocker off and check the wear pattern on the valve stem. If it's centered then your stock pushrod is fine. If the pattern is biased toward the intake then you'll need a longer pushrod. If toward the exhaust side of the head then you'll need a shorter pushrod. Let us know what's up.

I didn't install roller rockers because as said above I didn't want to deal with rockers and valve train geometry until the car was running reliably. Then I was going to buy some adjustable rockers and learn something new.

H/C/I install was tough enough. Adding rockers was too much for me to learn at one time

I did not install my rockers while on the base circle of the cam. I didn't know it mattered with stock rockers.

Daves94vert · Jul 21, 2009

Installing pedestal mount roller rockers is the same as installing the pedestal mount stamped steel ones.YouTube - BadShoeProductions's Channel check out this video it should help.

XERXES · Jul 21, 2009

Daves94vert said:
Installing pedestal mount roller rockers is the same as installing the pedestal mount stamped steel ones.YouTube - BadShoeProductions's Channel check out this video it should help.

Thanks a lot that seems simple enough. Is there anything else I should look for while I've got it apart? I'll obviously be looking for unusual wear.

final5-0 · Jul 21, 2009

XERXES said:
I'm very green to engine building. I really was under the impression you just torqued the stock rockers down to spec unless they are adjustable roller rockers. Then you get to worry about Zero Lash and 1/2-3/4 turn and all that good stuff. I tried to keep this as simple as possible with my parts choices. I didn't want to deal with rockers and valve train geometry until the car was running reliably. Then I was going to buy some adjustable rockers and learn something new.

Just a little more ... general info ... to help you understand how things
work with the OEM setup

Yes ... if EVERYTHING is just as Ford delivered the motor

There is no need to check anything and just ... bolt em down

again ... that is all parts and even the ... gaskets

The problem can occur when you use ANYTHING different

The thickness changes with different heads, gaskets, etc

You just gotta use an adjustable pushrod to check and see how long
of a pr you are gonna need with your new combo :Word:

A lot of the big cam sites have VERY GOOD tech write-ups which will
allow you to really see the big picture of why it is necessary to check
for the correct pr's, shims, springs, etc

Grady

XERXES · Jul 21, 2009

I've found my problem. My pushrods are the tiniest bit too short. Daves94vert pointed me in the right direction. I hope I explain this right. On both the intake and exhaust pushrods when the number one cylinder is on TDC of the compression stroke there is rotational movement of the pushrods. The rockers are torqued to 20 ft-lbs and I even torqued them to 25 still able to rotate them. There is some resistance but not enough to stop them from turning. No vertical movement at all.

I've seen peoples sigs saying they have 6.3 length pushrods. Stock is 6.272. I have a feeler gauge and the .028 difference I am convinced is all I need to take up the slack.

But I can't find 6.3's on Summit.

I also checked the valve stems. I was able to see a very faint mark on both of the valve stems that is closer to the inside then the center of the stem. Towards the top of the engine NOT the headers. All of this leads me to believe I need a slightly longer pushrod.

What do I get? Where do i get it?

RARE NOTCH · Jul 21, 2009

^ Here are trickflow 6.3 pushrods.

Trick Flow® Chromemoly Pushrods: TFS-21406300 - trickflow.com

99FiveOh · Jul 22, 2009

You know, summit's site used to rock! You could find anything, it's search engine was like google, it would fix errors and was a very smart search.

Now, forget about it! If you don't know the exact part number or the EXACT name of what you're looking for, you'll come up empty handed every time. Summit really needs to make it more user friendly.

If you ever need a part not listed in their catalog or online, just call them up. They'll have what you need 99% of the time.

Noisy Valvetrain after H/C/I install and I thought I did everything right

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