Oil pumps and oiling

[Route666]

It's been a while since I posted anything to exercise your minds, and I have a query.

I've heard high-volume oil pumps are a strain on the distributor gear, leading to increased wear, etc, but would it be possible to run a HV pump with an external line plumbed from the return line of a relocated oil filter directly to the mains oil gallery?

I don't mean send ALL the oil there, have a "T" piece, sending oil back to the filter relocation block, and to the mains gallery, so the mains would get two feeds.

I believe you're supposed to feed the mains with an external pump, so I'm wondering if this idea would work, or would it just destroy the oil pressure?

I'm thinking increased pressure from the HV pump, but countered by the increased flow to the mains, which would bring the pressure back to where it was previously, but flow more around the main bearings.

Has anybody done this, or know anything that will help? Anywhere I can read about it?

Thanks in advance

 

[66Runt]

Interesting idea

Pumps are designed to create flow not pressure. It is the restriction of flow that creates pressure. Most of this restriction is in the clearances in the crank and rod bearings, and lifter bores.
I think you will find the pressure will remain the same, but now we are bypassing the filter (somewhat) and have added points of possible failure.

Just my two cents.

Scott

 

[Route666]

It's a T junction on the return line, after it's been to the filter, on the way back to the filter mount block, so it wouldn't bypassing the filter, I definitely don't want to do that.

It is true what you say that there are now extra possiblities of failure but those who run it with dry sumps in race cars don't seem to have a problem with it. Ok sure, they have engineers looking over the car frequently, but I'd be doing the same. I do now with much more modern cars.

Would running a hard line along the side of the block to the main gallery be a good idea? I could have the T junction as part of that, so reducing the amount of pieces threaded together. I might even be able to support the hardline with a bolt somewhere along the block.

Ok I'll add some more, just to bring the whole oiling system to light.

I want to use a dual oil filter relocation system, so I can have two filters, meaning less flow restriction, easier access, and I can mount them upright so there is absolutely no way they can drain back, and it would make changing oil and filters a cleaner operation, no spilling oil everywhere. Between the filters and the engine filter mount, a check valve sits to stop drainback, but not just for when it is parked, for use with a later component. Before the check valve is where the oil sender will be located.

So after that setup, return to a thermostatic valve, that sends oil to the oil cooler if hot enough.

Then the oil cooler.

After the cooler, an oil accumulator on an electric valve, so when ignition "on" is switched it releases stored oil, and with the aid of the check valve, the slightly pressurised oil goes into the bearings, etc, not back into the sump. This gives pre-oiling, thus absolutely no dry starts, and maintains pressure if the pump is starved for whatever reason. It also gives protection if the oil pump goes south, as the pressure sender measures the pump pressure, but not the oil accumulator pressure, and so will show no oil pressure, whereas the accumulator will still provide some pressurised oil for long enough to shut it down. And with manual steering and brakes (what I've come up with that works together with everything and gives me the qualities I want), you won't be any worse off if you have to coast to a stop.

I know I know, overkill, sounds crazy etc, but I'd like to see over the lifetime of the engine if I get any appreciable increase in life, from removing dry starts, and oil starvation moments when cornering and braking, when "touring".

 

[brianj5600]

K.I.S.S. Get good oil and it won't be a problem. My dad has had 3 trucks that went over 200k miles w/o a failure due to start up and mine has 198k miles on it w/o a problem even at 10,000 to 12,000 mile oil changes. I would not worry about it. Over kill will only cost $$, hp and economy.

 

[pabear89]

You'd be better off with a Dry Sump system,
it would give you the option availabilty your looking for.

But for that kind of money you have better be doing some serious Racing.

Jm2c

PB

 

[Route666]

Yeh the keep it simple theory is good, especially because of the dollars.

Let's not argue about that, that's true and it's all part of the decisions I will make when I actually do something, but what I want to nut out right now is whether a stock or HV internal pump will flow enough to use an external priority main hookup.

 

[65up2d8]

I certainly do not mean to offend ANYONE who has replied. I recognize that there are a lot of very bright people who post on this forum with tons more experience in the real world than I have. I cannot help but to ask, however, why is it when someone comes up with an idea thats a little different or off the wall, it seems to always be answered with a fllodgate of replies that say its overkill or not necessary? I think Route 666 acknowledged that he is fully aware of the fact that his concept might be overkill, but he simply wanted to know the feasibility of his idea.

I don't want to come across as just singling out the guys that have already posted to this thread either. I posted a thread about replacing a unibody with a full-frame, and you would have thought (granted, with the exception of a very few kind souls) that I wanted to make Osama Bin Laden a U.S. citizen and give him a purple heart. Listen guys, to each his own, but the fact of the matter is that without some forward thinking and desire, there would not be upgrades/products like dual master cylinder conversions, disk brake kits, fuel injection conversions, Opentracker's roller spring perches, TCP kits, GW kits, etc., just to name a few of probably hundreds of upgrades that have become wildly popular in our hobby.

I guess my point is, we all look to this as a support group for our addiction/problems with these cars, and the majority of the time, we get our collective fixes. However, it seems like we can be the most pessimistic group that ever lived at times. Call me the Waterboy, but I think a good rule of thumb at times would be the following, which is just what my Momma always said: if you can't say anything good (or, in our case, that you have any information or experience related to the question asked), just don't say anything at all.

 

[Route666]

Yeh it happens in a lot of thread, but that's people caring, they don't want people wasting their money. For me it's just theory at the moment, and hopefully when it comes time to put it all into reality I'll have the best option (for my needs) picked out. So basically it's just dreaming out aloud.

I've read some little clues here and there that tell me that race cars with external pumps and priority mains run looser mains bearings to flow more, and remove friction. So if you run tighter tolerances you won't flow as much, so the smaller pump might work, but at the same time you might as not bother with an extra main feed.

I've also been reading about the Dart block I want to use, and the priority main oiling "feature" that it says it has sounds like it actually is built to flow more to the mains in the internal oiling system, without an external hookup.

Sounds like the plan turned out to be a dud, but if you don't think about these things you might miss out on something worthwhile.

 

[brianj5600]

but I think a good rule of thumb at times would be the following, which is just what my Momma always said: if you can't say anything good (or, in our case, that you have any information or experience related to the question asked), just don't say anything at all.

Experimenting with oiling systems can be catasrophic. I have no idea of route666's experience or funds, but IMO the problem he is fixing does not exist. I'm not sure he identified a problem. I'm not trying to be mean now or in your post. The opening line in this thread, to me, is inviting opinions, so I gave mine.

 

[66Runt]

snip...
I know I know, overkill, sounds crazy etc, but I'd like to see over the lifetime of the engine if I get any appreciable increase in life, from removing dry starts, and oil starvation moments when cornering and braking, when "touring".

The starvation would come from the oil pick up feed, so the extra filters and cooler, etc won't help there. However, starvation, dry start up and temperature are good points to consider.

If you can't use the correct style pan and baffle system, to prevent starvation, they do make an accumulator which is very effective. This if properly valved can also be used to prevent dry start up. The thermostatically controlled seperate oil cooler is a good idea, if you have heat issues to contend with, like waiting hours to get into the car show on a hot day idling with the A/C on... or maybe something serious like racing. Take a stoked 347. Where the pin is pushed right into the top of the piston. If you add a set of oil nozzles to spray up into the piston you drastically reduce piston temp, at the expense of increased oil temperature. This would be a good application to consider external oil cooling. Although I think for racing applications the tech inspector may balk at the excessive plumbing.

I think if you flow test a good quality filter you will find the filter is not a bottle neck of any kind. If you are still worried, those filters would need to be plumbed in parallel not series. Also as long as the filter has a quality drain back valve it will hold oil in the galleys. The filter is filled so quickly on startup that you shouldn't see an issue with galleys aireating (sp?). And if given just a minute or so to idle, you will definitely not see aireation. it's those idiots who fire up their engines and imediately rap it out a couple of times to impress the less knowledgable that severly shorten their engines life. Kind of like asking Lance Armstrong to go roll in the snow then jump on his bike and sprint up a hill

BTW: you are correct in that bearing tolerances directly affect oil pressure, and therefore to maintain adequate oil pressure in engines with more clearance, it will take a higher volume pump. The key to remember is that pumps create flow, not pressure. Pressure is created by the resistance to that flow. When we speak specifically of high pressure pumps, we are talking of pumps with a higher than normal relief valve setting coupled with more flow than is required by the system.

Also every system you have mentioned has at one time ,or is now being used in different applications. But it is very much application specific.

All that said. The plumbing for this could look pretty cool. Kind of like touring the inside of a Chinook helicopter (only hopefully without all the leaks!!!)

Scott

 

[Route666]

Thanks for the replies, it all helps!

I should say that my mind is around 75% sure that to run street tolerances (so it doesn't destroy itself at low rpm) would make priority mains not work, and even a performance street motor won't benefit from it, so it IS a total waste. Good thing I asked about it before just doing it or getting it done eh? This is why I ask.

Brian, I'm not very experienced, my dad's a mechanic and I helped pull diffs, rebuild motors as a child, but I understand more than I have actually done, through reading about them. Anyway, I'm going to use a professional engine builder, but I enjoy reading about different varieties of things, their qualities, and which would best suit me. For instance cranks have different construction, conter-weighting, mass, strength, cost, etc, each of which lends itself to one application or another.

Basically I want to engineer the engine and other parts of my car, but I'm going to get some of them built professionally, based on my specs.

Anyway, I guess I'm like an artist, but my art is going to be quality in an engineered machine. I want want to design and have built a car that is efficient, built to withstand hard runs, runs cool, is fairly light, has air-con, has maximum protection from wear, etc, etc.

Plus it's a work of art you are supposed to drive.


66runt, I did say previously that I wanted an oil accumulator in the oiling system for the dry-starts and oil starvation. I'm just letting you know I'm up with you on that point. I still want to use a deep T sump, and oil starvation probably would never be a problem for me anyway, but I like overkill. There, I said it. lol Also just having it for startup is a neat feature I think would make it worthwhile.

I too love high-performance machines and parts and stuff, and it tickles my brain to think about it, and seeing it all in there would be awesome.

It's good that you mention piston oil jet nozzles, as I think that is a fantastic idea. I would love to incorporate that, but how much of a custom thing is that? Is it just drilling into the oil system or does it require mods to this, machine that, weld here, etc? (I'm off to find some google info on it!)

 

[brianj5600]

I did see an external pump on a car at the drag races. It caught my interest, but the guy was busy so I did not have him go into detail. It was a single stage belt driven pump that used the pan for a sump. I'm not sure his reasons, but it was a departure from the norm. I like that you are always thinking, and noticed your urge for overkill. Oiling systems are one of the areas that hp can be gained or lost, and unfortunately everyone is holding their cards close to their chest.
When I was racing motorcycles I found out that lowering the oil pressure was good for close to 5hp on a '94 750 Suzuki, but it was hard to get info on what spring to put in the bypass. The top teams could try different ones to find out what worked and what killed motors. I never had the funds to risk a motor, so I never tried it..

 

[Route666]

Speaking of motorcycles and lowering oil pressure with the bypass spring, I'm into Harleys, and have recently been reading about the top-end racket the new twin-cam motor makes, and that it can be cured by increasing the bypass spring pressure and sending more oil up top, where things clack and rattle.

It is hard to try new technology when you can't afford it, but I think that's what street machining is all about, especially in recent years. In recent years the quality of street machines has increased dramatically, well maybe not the quality, but the number of people doing it. So now to build something custom you really have to go way out, and I want to do that with technology in drivetrain and suspension, not in plush interiors and over-the-top paint. The oil system is one of those things you don't want to stuff up though, because it would be catastrophic so I might just leave the basic system and add the pre-oiler and thermo'd cooler.

Cheers for the new perceptions everyone!

 

[pabear89]

HosrePower Tv did a manual coldstart oil system pressure on the Nova racer they built.
You could use the same principal with switched sol activation.
A basic prestart switch to charge oiling system before keying starter,
with a oil pressure switch preset to close contact at your desired pressure.
Sending signal to starter sol. to turn starter.

early 80's 7.5 style helped cold starts,
they do not give ecm power to ign till oil pressure switch shows contact.

Food for thought,

PB

 

[Route666]

Yes thanks pabear, I had thought about setting up an oil pressure switch to the ignition or fuel computer (or maybe both) cutoff wire, inline with another switch, so it has some manual cutoff. I might revisit the idea. The electrical system is getting pretty complicated, and I don't mean including the EFI, just all the rest of the wiring, because I want to relay every switch, and have no switch flowing a lot of current.

These pre-oilers (canton) that I've been looking at have both a manual or electric release valve, so I think I'll be hooking the electric up to ignition on and another switch so I can turn it to on for a few seconds before startup and pre-oil it. The switch will allow me to keep the ignition on for music or test electrics or whatever and not empty the oiler.