Ongoing water pump problem

lparsons · Nov 9, 2008

I just replaced my water pump today. I suspected based on the noise, leakage, and steam that I needed a new pump. I did all four hoses at the same time. I applied RTV to the pump gasket before wrenching it in.

Then I started my car after re-filling the coolant, and did not notice the previous squeal. However, when I parked my car again, I was again leaking coolant. I seems to be leaking from a position near the center of the block, though I can't tell from how high up. This was the same leak I had before I removed the old pump.

I also noticed that the "low oil" light came on - this is the first time I've ever had that light come on. Not sure if that was related or not, but I thought it was odd.

And to top it all off, the pump I removed that I thought was bad turns fine by hand. It looks like I might have pulled a working pump and ended up with a problem the same as before.

I'm stumped now on what to do next. Is this just an issue of the pump not being tightened enough, or is there anything else I can do to control the leak?

grngt50 · Nov 9, 2008

Well if you absolutely sure your water pump has a nice seal, then I would suspect the culprit to be your timing cover......sometimes it's hard to tell which is leaking between to two. Another area that's a PITA to get a nice seal on sometimes is the thermostat housing. I have to you a lot of silicone to make it seal.

Dont feel to bad dude.....just because your pump turns by hand doesn't mean it is still good. The seals still could've been bad.
-James

desertcox05 · Nov 10, 2008

ditto ^

revhead347 · Nov 10, 2008

Check the water outlet (thermostat housing) too. If it's leaking there will be a little puddle on the top of the timing cover behind the water pump.

Kurt

lparsons · Nov 10, 2008

revhead347 said:
Check the water outlet (thermostat housing) too. If it's leaking there will be a little puddle on the top of the timing cover behind the water pump.

Ooops, perhaps I am teh stoopid. Somehow in the process of replacing the water pump and all four hoses I did not replace the thermostat. I purchased one, but did not see one while changing these parts out and hence did not install a new one.

I'll have to check the book again and see where the thermostat is. How on earth I managed to not see it in this process is beyond me - unless of course some idiot before me neglected to install one.

I guess when I get home tonight I'll check the timing cover as well as the thermostat and its housing (wherever it is supposed to be).

thanks

revhead347 · Nov 10, 2008

The thermostat housing is on the front of the intake. It's the part that the upper radiator hose hooks onto. It's just a small 90 degree casting that bolts to the front of the intake with two bolts. It's really easy to remove. They do tend to leak often. Also, the factory one is made of aluminum, and has a tendancy to bend. Especially if while you are installing the new thermostat, it drops down out of the recess and falls into the space between the intake and the manifold. If it drops down there, you will end up bending the thermostat housing when you tighten it back down. If it leaks after you reinstall the thermostat, just assume that it is bent. You can buy a cast iron one at Autozone or Advance for about $12 last time I checked. The cast iron ones are much more durable, and worth the investment in my opinion. Just don't get a chrome one, those are junk. When you go to the store it will be listed in the computer as a "water outlet."

Kurt

lparsons · Nov 11, 2008

**** **** **** **** ****

Well I bought the water outlet, and replaced that on my car. I did the thermostat as well and used RTV black for both sides of the gasket. Tightened the hell out of both bolts on that and things looked good for a little while.

Then I went to drive to work and the car overheated after a few hilly blocks. I pulled over to stop and there was smoke (steam, likely) billowing like mad. I limped it home - stopping regularly to let the car cool down. Looks like I am still leaking coolant from somewhere, it seems to be coming from the water outlet but I have no idea how.

I also noticed that I am getting no heat whatsoever inside the car. Even when the temp gauge is showing overheat (or extremely close to it), I turn the heat on full inside the car and get cold (ambient 33F) air from the vents.

Now I have the car back in the garage sitting on a mountain of floor dry (kitty litter) so I can try to figure out if I am losing coolant anywhere else. It seems to come only from the water outlet / thermostat as best I can tell. Obviously when the coolant leaks out it hits the very hot manifold and boils off almost instantly, causing the steam I see.

However, the high temp / no heat situation I do not understand. The car does seem to cool off fairly quickly (stop at idle for 5 mins and cools from H to normal). Any insight into this would be great. It looks like I'll be missing another day of work but I'd like to make it in tomorrow.

thanks

revhead347 · Nov 11, 2008

The problem is that you have a huge leak, and the water isn't pressurizing at all, which is leading it to boil over quickly and cool down quickly. My guess, without looking at the car is that the thermostat dropped down out of the receiver groove when you bolted it on, and there is a giant gap in the bottom of the water outlet. Run the car in the driveway and look for exactly where it is coming out of. If it is coming out of the bottom of water outlet here is a good trick for making sure that thermostat stays in place. First of all, just to double check, the spring on the thermostat should be facing away from the radiator, into the engine. Get another gasket for the water outlet. It works a lot better with a gasket, RTV alone is just to week to hold the pressure. Place the Thermostat into the receiver groove of the water outlet first, then use a little rtv to adhere the gasket to the water outlet. Wait for that rtv to dry a little bit, so that the thermostat is glued into place, and can't drop out of the receiver groove when you turn it on it's side to put it in. The put a little rtv on the intake, and bolt it to the engine. See how that works for you.

Kurt

lparsons · Nov 11, 2008

no dice

revhead347 said:
The problem is that you have a huge leak, and the water isn't pressurizing at all, which is leading it to boil over quickly and cool down quickly.

Sounds very likely to me.

My guess, without looking at the car is that the thermostat dropped down out of the receiver groove when you bolted it on, and there is a giant gap in the bottom of the water outlet. Run the car in the driveway and look for exactly where it is coming out of. If it is coming out of the bottom of water outlet here is a good trick for making sure that thermostat stays in place.

Best I can tell, yes the coolant leak is from the bottom of the water outlet.

First of all, just to double check, the spring on the thermostat should be facing away from the radiator, into the engine. Get another gasket for the water outlet. It works a lot better with a gasket, RTV alone is just to week to hold the pressure.

I may have been too vague; I was using the RTV to hold the gasket in place on the water outlet, while still using a gasket as well.

However, I did previously have the thermostat on the wrong side of the gasket - I was going outlet, gasket, thermostat. I see instead it should be outlet, thermostat, gasket.

Place the Thermostat into the receiver groove of the water outlet first, then use a little rtv to adhere the gasket to the water outlet. Wait for that rtv to dry a little bit, so that the thermostat is glued into place, and can't drop out of the receiver groove when you turn it on it's side to put it in. The put a little rtv on the intake, and bolt it to the engine. See how that works for you.

Kurt

Maybe I'm not patient enough with the RTV drying. I just got back, drove a few blocks again after redoing the thermostat/gasket/outlet combination. Engine did not go all the way to overheat, but came extremely close. Tons of smoke / steam anytime I stopped. I pulled it back into the garage and nearly died of asphyxiation from the cloud that followed me in. Still no heat inside the car.

I'll wait for it to cool down, then try outlet/thermostat/rtv/gasket/rtv again. If that doesn't work maybe I can bribe the neighbor to drive me to the nearest auto parts store (~5 miles) so I can buy another new gasket for the outlet and make another attempt that way.

thanks again

grngt50 · Nov 11, 2008

How long are you giving the RTV to dry? I usually will give it around an hour, but then again I use tons of that sensor safe blue silicone crap. Might wanna give give that a shot if all else fails.

-James

lparsons · Nov 11, 2008

grngt50 said:
How long are you giving the RTV to dry? I usually will give it around an hour
-James

Wow, I had no idea. The tube usually just says "allow to air dry until it becomes somewhat tacky, then press together and torque to specification".

Anyways, I just put it together after letting it dry about an hour in the garage (garage temp around 55F). I'll give everything a little time before I take it out for another test-drive.

thanks,
Lee

94-302-vert · Nov 11, 2008

Are you sure it is leaking? Is it leaving a trail???

It almost sounds like an air bubble in the upper radiator hose to me...

lparsons · Nov 11, 2008

94-302-vert said:
Are you sure it is leaking? Is it leaving a trail???

It almost sounds like an air bubble in the upper radiator hose to me...

Yes, there is a trail when I'm moving slowly (like pulling into the garage). Of course I have to wait for the steam / smoke to dissipate first so I can see the trail.

I also see small amounts of antifreeze puddled on top of the block, right behind the water pump (which is right below the water outlet).

I'm thinking I have messed with the water outlet gasket enough that it has become utterly useless. I'll see when I can get up to the autoparts store and buy a new gasket or three.

I just drove an even shorter distance than before, after giving the rtv a couple hours to set. Car approached near-overheating in even less time than before. Cloud of smoke / steam was very impressive but nearly asphyxiating (and not likely good for the car, either). Still no heat from inside the car.

Danman765432 · Nov 11, 2008

I am just wondering which was you have your thermostat facing in the water outlet?

Mine was leaking a couples months ago after I fixed my head gasket but that was because the thermostat I bought was bent and it wasn't allowing the water outlet to seal with the Intake. Also I did not have as big of a leak as you are stating either.

Also before installing the gasket are you making sure there is no remaining old gasket left on the surfaces?

-Dan

lparsons · Nov 11, 2008

Danman765432 said:
I am just wondering which was you have your thermostat facing in the water outlet?

I double checked this one last time I removed the water outlet - the spring side of the thermostat is on the engine side of the outlet.

Mine was leaking a couples months ago after I fixed my head gasket but that was because the thermostat I bought was bent and it wasn't allowing the water outlet to seal with the Intake. Also I did not have as big of a leak as you are stating either.

I'll check the condition of the new thermostat and make sure it isn't warped. It looked good before I put it in but it wouldn't surprise me at this point if I managed to somehow damage the new thermostat in the process of putting it in.

Also before installing the gasket are you making sure there is no remaining old gasket left on the surfaces?

I scraped the surfaces down to get the old gasket material off - most of it went out with the old water outlet.

I'm really leaning towards the new water outlet gasket being suspect. I have now had the outlet on and off a few times, using the same (new) gasket each time. I think I'll see if I can get a ride to the autoparts store (actually 7 miles from home) so I can buy a new gasket or two.

I just started the car again, after re-re-re-re-tightening the water outlet bolts. I let the car run for a few minutes and then revved it up a bit. I could see coolant dripping very slowly from the bottom of the water outlet on the left (passenger) side. I'm thinking the gasket has just disintegrated terribly in the install/uninstall/install/uninstall/install process that I have put it through.

revhead347 · Nov 11, 2008

Those gaskets used to be 49 cents a piece, I don't know what they are now, but they can't that expensive. Just buy a few of them. I haven't bought any of those gaskets in awhile. I just bought a whole bunch of them a few years ago, a.k.a. gasket hedging. I keep almost a full set of gaskets in stock. Again, I am a loser.

Anyway, if it's puddling up behind the water pump, it's almost definately the water outlet, which is a simple fix. There is a slight chance it's the front intake gasket, or a head gasket, but both of those aren't very likely. Especially if it is leaking that bad.

Kurt

lparsons · Nov 11, 2008

Grrr....

I bought two more water outlet gaskets after my wife got home from work (had to wait for her car).

I went out to the car after dinner and found that the Autozone water outlet that I bought yesterday cracked into two pieces. Of course by the time I found that all the parts stores in the area had closed for the night.

Looks like I'll have to take her car again tomorrow, so I can get to work, return the POS water outlet, and buy another one somewhere else.

I guess the massive crack in the water outlet certainly does explain the coolant leak, though. I wonder if it may have had a hairline crack beforehand that was blown open completely in a recent iteration. Basically at this point one piece of the water outlet has one of the bolt holes with some surrounding material, and the other piece has everything else. Obviously no good seal could come from this.

And I intentionally did *not* buy the chrome water outlet, as someone else had suggested that they were junk.

lparsons · Nov 11, 2008

One last attempt before calling it a day...

I took inventory on what I had for parts, between what I had before I began this massive cluster f**k and what I have purchased in the numerous trips to assorted auto stores.

The original water outlet looks good after cleaning it up. At least several thousand times better than the one from autozone that broke into pieces. So I scraped every last bit of gasket off of it, and did the same for the place it connects to. I then used a new thermostat and a new gasket, with new (blue) RTV. Tightened everything down and took the car out for a drive, figuring this just might do it.

But alas the gods were not happy with me. Same short drive, same dismal results. I will say it took longer for the car to heat up, but just as before it heated up in a hurry once it started heating up. And by the time I reached a stop sign I was surrounded by a truck-sized cloud of steam from boiling antifreeze (I drive for about a mile out my door before I reach a stop sign).

Still, no heat inside the car. Again I was nearly asphyxiated pulling into my garage. But this time I can't seem to figure out where on earth the leak is. Before it was clearly coming from underneath the water outlet. Now I have no idea. No meaningful amount of new liquid on top of the floor dry on my garage floor to track back to anything. No dripping that I could see inside the garage after turning off the car (before I could see drops from the water outlet even with the car off).

Now I am even more confused than ever. If I wasn't so ***** broke I'd be tempted to just sell this car and go buy something else for the winter.

Danman765432 · Nov 11, 2008

yeah I know after market water outlets leak sometimes, at least i read a few threads about them.

Also just one more thing, are you burping the system when you initially start the car?

I dont know if i skipped over it before but where is the steam coming from?

Also I do know that a blown head gasket does cause overheating, too, but I dont know if that would be causing your problem. One way to check that is see if your oil is a milkshake but that requires an oil change and if you are tight on a budget I would look at some of the smaller stuff.

If you could clean everything up under your engine bay, you can start your car and just let it run until it gets up to operating temperature and see if you can see a leak coming from anywhere.

I am just tossing out ideas, to be honest I am pretty frustrated with my car right now, So i am in the same boat.

-Dan

desertcox05 · Nov 12, 2008

i'm just throwing this out there.... did you post earlier that you changed the heads and intake? if so could you have gotten the head or intake gaskets on upside or backwards, that could block a coolant port and cause overheating and no heat to the heatercore. as i said just a thought and if off base please somebody straighten me out

Ongoing water pump problem

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