Plastic intake= garbage:mad:

well i know that too, but im saying if the air is 97* itll cool the faster it moves, however itll heat back up a few degrees when passed through a hot manifold. but i that the the bullits intake design was all for looks any way, but you got to admit it is cool looking.

Mustang5L5 said:

As for performance, i think it has more to do with the design of the manifold vs the actual material it is made out of.

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True!

and I still love your avatar comment - freakin funny!

my plastic intakes shot too im thinking of buying a used one from mps

fast97gt said:

...im saying if the air is 97* itll cool the faster it moves, however itll heat back up a few degrees when passed through a hot manifold. but i that the the bullits intake design was all for looks any way, but you got to admit it is cool looking.

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OK, one at a time here...
#1 - Ambient air temp 97* - got it. But you are thinking that it will cool down the faster it moves? What scientific principle is that based upon?
#2 - It'll heat back up a few degrees when passed through a hot manifold..? Wrong again. Re-read my prior post. The air ingested by the engine takes approx 1/10th of one second to go from the air cleaner to the combustion chamber. (Now there in the combustion chamber it will certainly heat up!) But it will not gain an appreciable temperature moving through the intake tract at any typical engine temperature. There simply isn't time to absorb the heat of the engine/intake tubing/manifold/etc.
#3 - Yes, agreed the Bullitt intake is better looking and reportedly better for nitrous and/or boosted engines. Otherwise, it's a lot of money to swap out for very little in return.

Mustang5L5 said:

Actually, i do have data that may dispute that.

Not on a Mustang engine so there may be zero correlation, but a peice of test equipment I designed at work. To make a long story short, it takes air at an incoming temp of 23* C (73* F) and heats it to 230*C (446*F) in the span of about 3 feet of piping traveling at about 100 LPM. The amount of energy inputed is not that much either. I can't reveal too much about it though.

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Man, who do you work for? (If you told me you'd have to kill me, right?) I can't doubt your data as I really have no idea what you do. But raising the temp of air moving through a 3 foot tube at 100 LPM by some 300+ degrees with minimal energy? What then would cause the rise in temp?

Mustang5L5 said:

Not the same thing i know, but I beleive intake air passing through a HOT manifold can in fact climb in temp slightly before reaching the combustion chamber. An old 5.0 trick was to ice the intake before a run, and it would actually work.

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See I think the purpose of icing down a manifold was simply to cool the entire engine. I mean really think about it. How much heat can the air possibly absorb in that short amount of time/tubing? I'm not saying it won't absorb any - but I am saying that the amount absorb / amount of temp rise would be very, very minimal and not worth any power whatsoever. Cooling the entire engine is a whole different thing however.

quoted twogts4us,The air ingested by the engine takes approx 1/10th of one second to go from the air cleaner to the combustion chamber

what scientific data is that based upon, now think of the engine of a big vacuum cylinder. get a cylinder of some sort, maybe something that has at least a cubic foot air space, (i know you cant fit a round peg in a square hole) put a few drops of water in the bottom, when you pull vacuum the ambient air heats up, any moisture in there will vaporize and disapeare. now back on point i stated that air moving at a rapid speed will cool down a little bit. now my scientific principle is stand in front of a fan now with it off, turn it on, now turn it off, now turn it on, get a thermometer if you want, and see whats cooler. with it on or with it off?

trombonedemon said:

Thanks man, had a few of die hard Ford fans for a while telling me its totally my fault. Every company makes garbage, it the nature of the assembly line and more quantity over quality age , all is well though started to disasemble my intake and sensors for the install of the new intake. I tried to epoxy glue the thing back in and it still came out with a little pressure.

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well i like to look at it as a learning experiance now next time youll know to chase or clean threads before installing what ever your replacing

mustang5l5, oops my opolagys man i looked at the wrong post, man please forgive. ive gone back and fixed it

oh mustang5l5 dont worry me wont tell, shhhh

fast97gt said:

quoted twogts4us,The air ingested by the engine takes approx 1/10th of one second to go from the air cleaner to the combustion chamber

what scientific data is that based upon, now think of the engine of a big vacuum cylinder. get a cylinder of some sort, maybe something that has at least a cubic foot air space, (i know you cant fit a round peg in a square hole) put a few drops of water in the bottom, when you pull vacuum the ambient air heats up, any moisture in there will vaporize and disapeare. now back on point i stated that air moving at a rapid speed will cool down a little bit. now my scientific principle is stand in front of a fan now with it off, turn it on, now turn it off, now turn it on, get a thermometer if you want, and see whats cooler. with it on or with it off?

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First, moving air is a very good heat sink. That's why a radiator works. The air moving past the radiator takes with it some of the heat of the radiator. If moving air didn't absorb heat in that manner, radiators would not function.

That's also why you feel colder when standing in front of a fan. You feel cooler because the moving air takes heat away from your body, effectively cooling your skin and making it feel like the air is colder than it is. A thermometer would tell you that the ambient temperature hasn't changed, showing that the cooling effect comes from the moving air.

Second, when you apply a vacuum to a cylinder containing a few drops of water, the water drops will turn to vapor because the ambient pressure is too low for it to remain a liquid. Basically, you've boiled the water off by dropping ambient pressure rather than by increasing temperature. The temp inside the cylinder will actually drop. A gas like air actually increases in temperature when compressed, and decreases temperature when pressure drops. Anyone with a supercharger can testify to this.

A hot intake will heat the incoming air. And it's not just the air that contacts the sides of the intake that will absorb heat. The hot intake radiates heat. You can tell something is hot just by placing your hand near it. The air moving through an intake absorbs heat this way. Air doesn't have much mass, so it doesn't take very long for it to increase in temperature. Think how long it takes to heat an oven to 350 degrees vs. boil a large pan of water.

The issue with a metal intake is that the mass of material absorbs heat energy and conducts it very well. The more mass, the more heat it will absorb. A composite intake has very little mass compared to an aluminum unit, so it doesn't take much air moving through it to drop its temp to very close to the incoming air temp.

The more conductive a material, the faster the entire unit will reach the same temperature as the hottest location. For example, the heat from the heads is transmitted throughout the whole intake much faster when it is constructed of aluminum than when the intake is a composite material that conducts heat poorly. This means that the aluminum intake will absorb more heat faster than the composite piece. And since it has absorbed more energy it will take more air moving through it to cool it. The result is that no matter how much or little heat you think incoming air will absorb, an aluminum intake will heat more air.

Heat kills power. Hot air is less dense so it contains less oxygen by volume. Which means less fuel can be burnt, and the amount of fuel burned controls how much power is made. Hotter air -> less O2 -> less burned fuel -> less power.

Composite intakes absorb less heat and conduct heat poorly, so pass on less of the heat of the engine to the incoming air charge, resulting in a denser mass of air in the combustion chamber, and therefore make more power.

fast97gt said:

quoted mustang5l5,The air ingested by the engine takes approx 1/10th of one second to go from the air cleaner to the combustion chamber

what scientific data is that based upon, now think of the engine of a big vacuum cylinder. get a cylinder of some sort, maybe something that has at least a cubic foot air space, (i know you cant fit a round peg in a square hole) put a few drops of water in the bottom, when you pull vacuum the ambient air heats up, any moisture in there will vaporize and disapeare. now back on point i stated that air moving at a rapid speed will cool down a little bit. now my scientific principle is stand in front of a fan now with it off, turn it on, now turn it off, now turn it on, get a thermometer if you want, and see whats cooler. with it on or with it off?

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You're quoting the wrong person...
I was the one who said "it takes for a cubic liter of air to travel from the air cleaner to the combustion chambers...even at idle? About 1/10th of one second. Do the math."

Pulling a vacuum does not heat air. COMPRESSING air heats it. And why in the world would you think that a drop of water in a cylinder...oh, never mind, not worth even going there.

Your fan experiment / example is ridiculous. That's called a wind chill effect. You may feel cooler, but the air isn't any cooler.

Your arguments hold absolutely no value whatsoever. Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

twogts4us reread all the posts, im mocking everyone gah stupid, not really but ya REREAD the post i quoted, I FIXED IT. the air moving through a HOT intake will get HOTTER, (the air) no matter what anyone says or thinks. read 40oz's post, its a valid theory, nope its fact

Without a doubt, the air is warmed by traveling through the intake runners. The runners get to a substantial temperature, especially if made of metal! Why do you think people ice the intake? What makes power is hot combustion chambers and cold air, so it isn't becuase the whole engine is cool. It's because the incoming air isn't heated as much by the intake manifold.

If someone wants to measure the runner diameter and length, I can do some heat transfer estimates to see what the temperature rise is. I'd hate to guess at too many of the variables. I would like to point out that turbulence significantly increases the heat transfer, and the throttle body is a butterfly valve, and introduces a LOT of turbulance!