ProComp Head problems?

Another head you should take a look at is Trick Flow Fast As Cast 190. I am using a set and they flow very well and many consider them a better design than a traditional inline valve head like edelbrock, fords or AFR. I got my heads from Jay at Camshaft Innovations dot com. He put in fererra valves and LSX springs for the same price as Summit sells the heads ($1500). He also designed my cam.

Ive had the Avenger(Pro Comps) 205's for a couple of year, but they are not out of the box bolt ons.I had them CNC ported,changed the valves and springs and had had no issues.

imo otb fast cast 190's are too small for a 427. bare min head i would get it tfsr's, vicjr's or afr 205-225. best bang for the buck is vic jrs. great head for $1500. but if your not hardcore racing any of them will work fine. get whatever you can get the best deal on. sometimes you can find online sales on afrs or trickflows. i got my afr205 with upgraded valves, springs & locks for $1830. tons and tons of performance shops selling exactly the same stuff for same price, call around "price shopping" and someone will hook you up to get your business.

but for the love of god dont buy procomps

Different types of heads have different length runners.

Twisted Wedge head is shorter than AFR, Edelbrock, etc.. which are shorter than High Ports and Canfields.

So a 190cc Twisted Wedge will have roughly the same flow as an AFR 205.

AFR head flow rates are done on a larger bore block (4.125" IIRC) than those at Trick Flow (4.0" block).

68EFIvert said:

Different types of heads have different length runners.

Twisted Wedge head is shorter than AFR, Edelbrock, etc.. which are shorter than High Ports and Canfields.

So a 190cc Twisted Wedge will have roughly the same flow as an AFR 205.

AFR head flow rates are done on a larger bore block (4.125" IIRC) than those at Trick Flow (4.0" block).

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yes afr's so called cheat on there flow #s, however mm&ff compaired early afr205's and tfsR's and the afrs are superior on both flowbench and dyno. there are tons of head comparos done by mm&ff and 5.0, i have 10 yrs subsrciptions worth of those mags laying around i could find info on just about anything lol
best issue mm&ff did was i think in march 02 or 03? they compaired 25 different engine combos is the same article mild to wild. great read good stuff!!!

bikefreak600 said:

yes afr's so called cheat on there flow #s, however mm&ff compaired early afr205's and tfsR's and the afrs are superior on both flowbench and dyno. there are tons of head comparos done by mm&ff and 5.0, i have 10 yrs subsrciptions worth of those mags laying around i could find info on just about anything lol
best issue mm&ff did was i think in march 02 or 03? they compaired 25 different engine combos is the same article mild to wild. great read good stuff!!!

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I've read all those articles too, the cnc TW head (with 2.02 valves) slightly beats the afr 205 , here are the articles you are referring to, clearly the TEA TW-r beats the afr 225 in flow and on the dyno as well as stock TW-r vs afr 205. These MM&FF articles are on AFR's own website. Also you have to factor in final compression ratio when comparing heads dyno numbers. Even with lower compression the TW head makes more power and TQ. Bump the compression up to what the AFR has and the gain would be even bigger.

Ultimate Guide to 5.0 Cylnder Heads, Part 8

http://airflowresearch.com/articles/ultimate/Group3/Part6/A-P3.htm

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0608_cylinder_head_shootout/torque_increase.html

TFS heads are superior.

well there you go, TFS heads...........best HP per dollar spent.

I absolutly agree with everyone who says ProComp are crap. They are when you buy them assembled. The only reason they are still in business IMO is because some race shops out there just buy the bare heard and port the living crap out of them and put a butt load of money in seats, valves, and everything else.

I have canfield heads on my 306, and for quality, price, performance, and flow, its pretty hard to beat these.

Young Gun said:

I absolutly agree with everyone who says ProComp are crap. They are when you buy them assembled. The only reason they are still in business IMO is because some race shops out there just buy the bare heard and port the living crap out of them and put a butt load of money in seats, valves, and everything else.

I have canfield heads on my 306, and for quality, price, performance, and flow, its pretty hard to beat these.

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Canfields are great heads, but unfortunately they went out of production a couple of years ago so the OP may have a hard time finding a new set. The TFS heads are readily available and are just as kick ass.

I think I have figured out these Procomp heads, what do you think

So here it is; I have been researching these heads for a couple days now. I have talked to Machine shops, read every post I could find, talked to suppliers of these heads, looked at flow chart data and read a couple magazine articles. I think I have separated the wheat from the chaff, eliminated all the BS and over stating to make a sale by the marketing people and here are my conclusions for your review and hopefully, your thoughts on what I have said. Interestingly enough, over half of the people that have a negative opinion of these heads have never laid hands on a set and have formed there opinion because they heard it from a guy that heard it from a guy. Of those that have used them and have a negative opinion of them there are 3 reasons these people put these heads in the crap category:

Valve trine issues
I will concede that if you run a set of Procomp heads with procomp valve train parts you are rolling the dice. The parts are cheep and prone to fail. Not only have a lot of people complained of this but also the further proof is that reputable companies like Jegs only sell them bare. That in and of it self tells me that the casting can easily be worked with, but the fact that they do not sell them assembled tells me that the Procomp valve-train parts are crap.

They’re Chinese nock offs
There is no getting around this one. These heads are copies of other company’s heads, and it is a personal choice to either buy them or not.

you get what you pay for
The old adage is true, $1500 gets you a set of name brand heads that have been fully polished and machined, $700 gets you similar procomp heads that have been cast and no port work has been done. A lot of people who complain about them want their $700 heads to work as well as a set of $1500 heads, and it simply isn’t going to happen. If look at the guys who complain about the lack of power they got from their procomp heads most are running a 351 that has been stroked, most have super aggressive cams and are trying to maximize HP. In a situation like that there is no contest between a fully machined head and a cast head. As I said before you get what you pay for. If you are looking for a super high flowing set of heads for a big engine you will need to pony up for the better heads.

Now that we have looked at the problems lets look at the solutions and more importantly why I am %90 sure I will be getting a set.

Valve trine issues
If you use quality parts in the valve train this issue is eliminated, especially if you get the heads from a company that specializes in them. The company I have been talking to from eBay admits that these heads need work to become a solid product and they put in the work. They machine the heads to make sure everything lines up and is installed correctly, and use high quality parts. Also when you are dealing with a company that is dealing with the same basic head they know exactly what the problems and short coming are, what to look for, and exactly how to fix these issues. The end result is a quality valve train in a corrected head.

They’re Chinese nock offs
As I said before there is no getting around this one. These heads are copies of other company’s heads, and it is a personal choice to either buy them or not. When possible I prefer to buy local rather than mail order, even if it costs me a little more, but a lot of times the cost is a lot more so I am forced by to by on-line and the same holds true of parts made in the USA or made over seas. In this day and age a lot of goods come from over seas and there is no way to avoid it completely. A lot of us still shop at harbor freight because of the cost to quality ratio even though all those tools are Chinese nock offs


you get what you pay for
As I said above, A lot of people who complain about Procomp heads want there $700 heads to work as well as a set of $1500 heads, and it simply isn’t going to happen. But in this case getting what you pay for also means you are getting an improvement over a $500 set of stock heads. A lot of “performance” engines are built with factory iron heads. In some cases the heads may have been machined for bigger valves or had some minor port work done but in most situations they are the factory casting which are a little rough just as the pro comp units are. The difference is the Procomp units flow much better than the iron units Ford made, have bigger valves from the factory, have smaller chambers, and reduces the engine weight by quite a bit. A set of ready to go (but nothing special) iron heads will set you back $400 to $600 depending on what you get but will still not perform as well as the $700 Procomp units so in this situation you are in fact getting what you pay for. It really comes down to what you compare it to, If you compare a set of Procomps to a set of Edelbrocks or AFRs the procomp will look like crap, bit if you compare a set of Procomps to a set OEM Ford 83 heads (one of the worst OEM SBF heads ever made) the procomps look really good, even compared to a set of E7s or GT40s the procomps are better.

As with any engine part it comes down to the over all build. If you are building a mild 289 or 302 than the Procomps should flow more than enough for the application. In some cases you can put a big expensive part on an engine and not see much benefit. If you were to take a 289 built just as ford did for a plain 65 coupe, (not a K code) and dino it, then change only the heads to a set of Edelbrock or AFR, you are not going to see a tone of improvement because of the limitations of the intake, cam, and other parts. Even a mild build with a more aggressive cam, aluminum intake, and 4-barrel carb will not utilize the full potential of a set of Edelbrock or AFR heads. Yes those heads will perform better than stock but due to the mild build I would bet the performance would be similar to the Procomps. That is the case in my build and that is why I am leaning towards getting a set of procomps. This build is a 302 that is all about low-end torque. The engine should not normally see more than about 4500 RPMs and at the lower RPMS the flow differences should not make that big of an impact.

I guess when it is all said and done it comes down to cost vs. benefit, it’s no different than the choice to buy a harbor freight tool or the top of the line tool of similar design. In many cases the harbor freight tool works, and with a little time and effort can be made to work better, just as replacing the valve train on the Procomps can make them work better. My lathe is a perfect example of the cheap tool getting the job done. It is Chinese built and the tolerances could be a bit tighter on it, but it cost a lot less than a “good one”, still works well in most cases, and is way better then the “chuck up a piece of metal in a drill” technique that I used to do. So that’s my thinking. Now that you have read through it what do you think??

I'll start by saying I put Pro Comp heads on my 302. Like you I have read lots of comments from people that "heard" they were bad heads. While they may be out there, I have yet to read a bad comment from someone that actually has Pro Comps. I also understood they were made is Australia, but wherever.
I spent the money I saved on the castings for quality roller rockers, push rods, and valves. The shop that put my motor together would not install the heads unless they took them apart and checked all the tolerances. That is their standard procedure for any heads they do not provide. They are especially concerned about the valve guide machining, as they said a hung valve or other problem would look bad on them. Occasionally they find problems in all brands of heads, which is why they check them all.
The Pro Comps had no issues. The shop said all the machining was correct, and the heads looked as good as any others they install. That made me feel better since the owner has been building race engines since the early 60's, for himself and others. When I put the engine in and installed all the accessories, all the bolt holes were right and everything lined up correctly.
So far, the engine has about 45 min. of garage time on it. It runs fine so far, but can't say what will happen down the road. I can only say what I see for myself.

Funny you say that most people with bad comments about then have never used them or even touched them. I have had no issues them other then melting a chamber from a head gasket, but i have freinds that has used them for years and made good power (446 hp on a 347).

Forums have a lot of good information as well of al ot of people talking out of their a** with no experience with the part in question.

Also look at Dart's offerings. I am very pleased with mine after 4 years.

I originally purchased my Procomp 210's new from a well know head supplier in Ohio. My heads had 2 issues that I had to repair. First the pushrod holes were not aligned with the rockers, thus requiring drilling out the holes and sleeving them with ultra thin brass to prevent oil from entering the intake ports. To get better rocker alignment after this repair, I used Isky adjustable guide plates to get decent alignment.

The second issue is also well documented in that the valve guides wear quickly. Even though I had the rockers aligned as mentioned above, 2 valve guides had excessive wear within 1000 miles. Under warranty, my head supplier sent me 3 guides to fix the problem (they would have done it themselves, but I have free access to machinist equipment and wanted to save the shipping costs.) Come to find out that the guides used were not even a commonly available part here in the USA. Had to turn down the ones sent to get the correct outer diameter.

After all the work and new stainless valves, the isky guide plates, the brass sleeves, I had $1100 (no labor charges) in a pair of Procomps. My heads worked fine for a couple of years, with the only other issue being that valve cover gaskets would not last very long as the heads sealing ridge did not fully match the valve cover gaskets and stock valve covers on the intake side of the heads. I tried rubber, cork, doubled cork and all were temporary fixes.

Here is my pair with the new valves, ARP rocker studs, and .700 lift springs, less the Isky guide plates:





I later traded some stuff for a pair of used AFR 210's and can't say enough about them. I could tell the difference on the street in 3rd gear in all RPM ranges (not counting the increased high speed potential in 4th) and I gained 7mph at the track with little more a swap of $1300 used heads. Other quality heads can be purchased new in the $1400 range.

That is my ACTUAL experience, which mirrors many reports on the web.

Aside from the problems that I experienced, I have also heard from trusted individuals on Yellow Bullet about valve seats dropping out of position and ruining good engines. Are you feeling lucky?

Good Luck with your project, however you choose to proceed.

Thanks, dennis112. That's what I have been waiting to hear, someone who actually owned them.
I have the 190's, and didn't have the problem with the push rod alignment. I will, however, pay close attention to any problems that may point to valve seat problems. They have sold a BUNCH of them here in the last couple of years, without noticeable problems, but you never know. I have enough money in this now (as long as I'm at it......) that if I was to do it over again I probably would have popped the extra $500 to $700 for a name brand.