Project 67 Coupe is in the thinking phase: Thinking Phase 1, motor

65fastback2+2 · Sep 23, 2009

so Im looking for some insight

this is a 1967 v8 coupe that currently has a roller 5.0 swap

ok, so my goals are 550-600 rwhp n/a and something that will hold a 200-250 nitrous shot for the track.

that being said, ive played around with motor choices in my head and this is where I am at currently.

Im a resto-mod type guy so I like originality and I would love to keep the CID's of the motor to something nostalgic...i know that may sound dumb, but its what I want to try and accomplish. I also want reliability as this car is going to be my weekend warrior, occasional DD and a track demon. It will get 6-10k miles per year on it no doubt...i love driving.

So heres my options (with drawbacks):

1) 427 windsor stroker - ive heard some reliability issues out of going 427 with the windsor...most suggest not going over the 408 for reliability.

2) 427, 428 or 429 "big block" - downside here is Id rather not have the extra 200-250 pounds up front...plus, i like to have room to provide motor maintenance and to work on it if need be. stuffing a big block in there doesnt sound as appealing, not to mention the upfront weight. i want something nimble if I want to do auto-x or some hill climbs or road racing.

3) 351 Cleveland - i looked into stroker kits but nothing of nostalgic CID's, so if I went this route I would leave it stock cubes. problem here is not as many aftermarket parts so this will be more expensive...plus, i know clevelands are bigger motors and i want to keep the engine bay somewhat roomy

anyhow, I know im asking a lot and have some "stupid" parameters....any suggestions?

6Stang7 · Sep 23, 2009

If we take all your parameters into consideration, you want a small block N/A motor that produces around 660 BHP, can stand a 200-250 shot, will see both drag and auto-x track time, and can be daily driven.

As I see it, if you could get that amount of power out of a sb (we're talking almost, if not over 2HP/CID), it's not going to be the best for daily driving; then you have to add the 200-250 shot.

The 427 Windsor I'm looking at is rated at 460HP (200 short of what you want); I honestly don't know if you can realistically do this.

The best possibility I see is either getting forced induction on a small block, or going up to a big block.

Calponycarsmike · Sep 23, 2009

I have a friend that just built a 331 NA with webbers and just about everything you can do to get HP out of a Small Block while making sure it won't blow up every 500 miles and he is pushing about 500HP so 660 HP is going to be hard to hit.

6Stang7 · Sep 23, 2009

I'd like to point out that the 660BHP assumed a 15% lose through a manual driveline making 575rwhp.

65fastback2+2 · Sep 23, 2009

for the 427w I was thinking about using the new boss 351 ford racing block

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/13/ford-racing-introduces-new-boss-351-engine-block/

65fastback2+2 · Sep 23, 2009

Calponycarsmike said:
I have a friend that just built a 331 NA with webbers and just about everything you can do to get HP out of a Small Block while making sure it won't blow up every 500 miles and he is pushing about 500HP so 660 HP is going to be hard to hit.

so you dont think its possible out of a 427?

heres a few setups I was reading about elsewhere on the net:

Bennett 427 Dart (4.125 borex4.0 stroke), stage 3 TF highport, MSD distributor, F.A.S.T. motor management, fully ported victor junior intake, Accufab 4 hole thottle body, custom cam: intake 240 @ .050 .600 LIFT; exaust: 248 @ .050 .612 LIFT; lobe 112. 590hp/580ft/lb on the flywheel. TKO 600 behind.

y "Clevor" is...A 1972 351W block Stroked to 427 Cubic Inches with 1971 Cleveland 4V Heads. 4.17 Stroke .40 Bore. Ross Pistons, Scat9000 crank, Eagle H-Beam Rods, Cat steel Roller tip Rockers, Manley 2.19 Intake Valve, and 1.73 Exhaust. 12.5:1 Compression.541 Lift 292 Duration. 618HP@6500 & 567FTLBS@5000.

course those are just internet finds...could be inaccurate info for all i know which is why this thread

6Stang7 said:
I'd like to point out that the 660BHP assumed a 15% lose through a manual driveline making 575rwhp.

ya, its probably going through a viper spec T56

fostereast · Sep 23, 2009

Engine Selection

An FE engine "427," does not have to weigh 200lbs more than a small block. You can also stroke the 427 to 482 or so, relatively easily because it's a very common upgrade to these engines. If you get a new aluminum block, it only weighs 100lbs. It will fit and you can get headers that fit. There is nota substitute for cubic inches. Several of the aluminum blocks are also tested at over 1,000 hp, so your nitrous shot won't be so crazy either. To build any engine to your horsepower goals while making it reliable is expensive, so I'm not sure it matters which one of the three you start with, (small block, FE or 429) but I like the stroked FE motor for the reasons I mentioned.

6Stang7 · Sep 23, 2009

I'm with fosterest on this one. If you want to keep it N/A, a big block seems your best bet. Either way you go about this though, it's going to be expensive.

Calponycarsmike · Sep 23, 2009

To hit those numbers the car is not going to be a great daily driver, even if it just every once in awhile. My good friend built a radical "street" chevy with a big block making 680 hp to the ground, great drag car, nightmare on the street, and the car was built right. You could go with a little less horsepower, and lighten the car and have a more balanced car. Just my 2 cents. I have always been one to focus on suspension, handling, and lightness then just shoehorning a big motor in.

fostereast · Sep 23, 2009

Horsepower

Like Calponycarsmike says; Ignoring rear wheel horsepower, getting a 482inch FE to over 500 Hp on an engine dyno that is streetable is not unreasonable. Getting it to handle a 250 shot of Nitrous Oxide is still reasonable in terms of some level of engine reliability. Getting it to take a 250 shot and still go down the track reasonably safe will be a bit of work. (What you have to do with the car to handle this seems like it will make it a little tough to drive daily) All of it's expensive once you get over 1hp per cubic inch power level and want it to live a while.

It seems like more is always better, but if your looking for Hp fo Hp sake, make sure your OK with the whole package. I've actually dialed own on my Hp goals for this reason. Lots of power, but still safe, fun & not too obnoxious to drive. You easily might have more experience at this than me, so please don't take offense by my opinions.

Calponycarsmike said:
To hit those numbers the car is not going to be a great daily driver, even if it just every once in awhile. My good friend built a radical "street" chevy with a big block making 680 hp to the ground, great drag car, nightmare on the street, and the car was built right. You could go with a little less horsepower, and lighten the car and have a more balanced car. Just my 2 cents. I have always been one to focus on suspension, handling, and lightness then just shoehorning a big motor in.

rebel65 · Sep 23, 2009

whats wrong with a blower? get a 351w and a nice Centrifugal and you'll be there in NO time. get a 5.0 and you can still do it...

an n/a sbf going 500-600 RW HP as you said will be something stupid high in compression. i know you're not out here in california where we don't get anything above 91 octane from non racetracks or airfields. but you'll have to pump the big dollar stuff, i mean big dollar just so it doesn't sh** itself.

why not just a 5.0 with a big blower doing a bunch of boost, intercooler or whatever and get as much HP as you want. n/a with those goals is not going to happen with a 'smallblock' imo.

also remeber where the HP and tq is going to be at on the revs. bb down low, can't go wrong with a bb.

65fastback2+2 · Sep 23, 2009

fostereast said:
An FE engine "427," does not have to weigh 200lbs more than a small block. You can also stroke the 427 to 482 or so, relatively easily because it's a very common upgrade to these engines. If you get a new aluminum block, it only weighs 100lbs. It will fit and you can get headers that fit. There is nota substitute for cubic inches. Several of the aluminum blocks are also tested at over 1,000 hp, so your nitrous shot won't be so crazy either. To build any engine to your horsepower goals while making it reliable is expensive, so I'm not sure it matters which one of the three you start with, (small block, FE or 429) but I like the stroked FE motor for the reasons I mentioned.

my only qualm with this is, if im going to drop the coin on a aluminum 427 BB, why not spend the money on the 427 SB? the boss 351 block from ford racing comes in a big bore flavor for $1999 and it'll provide more room in the engine bay than a BB. how much are BB 427's in aluminum?

6Stang7 said:
I'm with fosterest on this one. If you want to keep it N/A, a big block seems your best bet. Either way you go about this though, it's going to be expensive.

im fine with expense...i do things right the first time, so if it means more money and waiting more time to get it right I will.

Calponycarsmike said:
I have always been one to focus on suspension, handling, and lightness then just shoehorning a big motor in.

it doesnt have to be a dream on the street.

and im focused on the rest of the car as well, viper spec T56, built 8.8" with an eaton diff and 31 splines. I want to run a 10.5" wheel on the street with a 305 or 315 drag radial. Id like to set it up with a watts 4-link in the rear and a double a-arm front suspension setup. But motor....I cant decide what I want the motor to be haha. btw, if you have suggestions for the rest of the driveline I mentioned above, have at it.

rebel65 said:
whats wrong with a blower? get a 351w and a nice Centrifugal and you'll be there in NO time. get a 5.0 and you can still do it...

i really just dont want to do a supercharger...if I was gonna spend $4k on a supercharger, Id rather throw that at the heads or something else. Now if I was going to supercharge it, Id do a 351 5.4L Modular motor with a whipple on top

65fastback2+2 · Sep 23, 2009

so i just remembered, whatever front suspension I end up doing I'll be cutting the shock towers anyhow, so fitting a big block wont be an issue.

Now, that being said...do I go 427, 428 or 429?

and more importantly...what about weight? I forget the weights of these motors compared to small blocks but I definitely want to keep the weight outta the car. Can I get away with an iron block and just go with aluminum heads up top? or will that not keep enough off the front?

my goal is to keep the motor around 450-500 pounds. Will I need an aluminum block for that?

wicked93gs · Sep 23, 2009

heres my vote....a 351W block...stroked to 393ci(true, the end CI isnt nostalgic, but the external appearance is a 351, so you can claim 351 and no one will dispute it) I would suggest a 427, but reliabilty is the first requirement in my book...as for the power, good luck without boost....to me its cheaper and simpler just to do a remote mount turbo setup that will look stock and make the type of power you are looking for...not all turbos can be heard(you couldnt hear the turbo ever on my neon...not sure why...I think it had to do with the intake design I made...it didnt bother me)

now if you are going with a big block....it would have to be an aluminum block for that weight(remote turbos are cheaper and more reliable I tell you)

rebel65 · Sep 23, 2009

i would say remote turbos also just because i can't get past the fact that they're SO COOL. i love turbos, but the added weight of tubes for the remoteness( i am assuming you are calling turbos in the trunk remote, not something like under the engine near the tranny either way i like turbos ; ) ) which is why i suggested a centrifugal blower.

and why i say that is because it's the easiest way to get to the goal you set out even with a 5.0 block.

on your 5.4 stroked to 351 /w a wipple. i would consider a KenneBell before a whipple, but that's just me ;D.

you said that 'expensive is ok'
and in your example i think you're going to be spending more money on a 351 cid stroked 5.4 with a whipple than a 351w or 5.0 slapped with a procharger

i have a 392w that i LOVE but to be honest it is reallly on the edge of being streetable. i'm sure theres a couple things i could do to make it a little better ( i don't have a choke for one ) but pushing ~500hp at the crank ( i haven't put it on a dyno, they are the engine builder's estimate Top Of the Hill Performace in Livermore & i trust Ted, will be on a chassis dyno soon enough ) and i'm sure it can get another oh...50 out of it somewhere with a different intake and heads. maybe some higher compression pistons but it's already above 10:1.

kilgorq · Sep 23, 2009

408 EFI Twin turbo stroker will get you where you want to be. And still be a good dd.

tx65coupe · Sep 24, 2009

I don't care for nitrous. In my opinion, its temporarily making the car faster. I don't see the point to it. Its not always there when you want it and it runs out and needs to be refilled.

If I were to do anything like what you are wanting to do it would be a supercharger. I'm not into the whole turbo thing, but that is a good way to go as well. With either of these setups the car will always have the same feel.

DK832 · Sep 24, 2009

My 2c: go SBF, Dart or World aftermaket block and single turbo + EFI and forget the nitrous. When you dont step into it you'll have a nice street SB with normal compression and a small cam with vacuum and good MPG. When you get on it you can have your screaming monster for as long as you dare keep up the boost. Turbos with EFI are really a dream come true for what you want. And you can silence a turbo as much as you want by returning the BOV air to the intake and the wastegate to the exhaust.

65fastback2+2 · Sep 24, 2009

my reasons for nitrous were:

a) this will be a carb car, no efi
b) dont need max power all the time, only at the track

now these could be stupid reasons, Im not sure. I'll be honest, I figured 550ish wheel was fairly "easy" n/a for 427 cubes.

Im really starting to lean towards and aluminum bb....though Im still curious why I wouldnt do a 427 Cleveland....or something like a 427w shortblock with cleveland heads. There was a guy on svtp recently that made 650rwhp n/a outta a 385 cleveland on stock heads....so I guess thats where I figured 550 was a "easy" goal.

rebel65 · Sep 24, 2009

what kind of gas are you willing to dump in it?

and of your two reasons. #2, DK832 was saying that exact thing, you can drive around town with the turbo hardly spooling up at all, then when you get to the track, put the foot down and watch the glory of the psi. and it would be verrrry easy to get to your goal witha turbo. and theres nothing bad about that. nothing.

Project 67 Coupe is in the thinking phase: Thinking Phase 1, motor

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