PUT the COFFIN back in the Ground

Zodiac · Aug 13, 2005

You're not gonna pass emissions without cats.

MSP · Aug 13, 2005

bigaloz said:
Doesn't sound as bad as rice, but still nowhere near good old V8 sound

Oh absolutley not bigaloz!! Nothing but a V8 can get to that low down and dirty grunt of a V8.. Not trying to sound as good as a V8.. Just trying to sound good.. Is that ok? Please remind me so often that it doesnt sound like a V8.. Sometimes, I forget.. LOL!!

Hey 5-SpeedStallion!! I just want our man scheetz83 to finish what he started, and not draw any conclusions until he is complete..

scheetz83

The XPIPE does not screw with the computer at all my friend. Not to worry..

Actually, I take that back.. It may screw with the computer, in a good way, if and when I decide to get my car tuned.. LOL!! Lazy ass me still has yet to get the car tuned.. Who knows, what surprises await on the other side of an SCT2 Tune..

FastNYellow · Aug 13, 2005

youi can use the MAc muffler dual exhaust conversion kit without an X or H pipe and get a deep sound. - Roger

fazm83 · Aug 13, 2005

the dual mac one i heard sounded the most ricey out of all of them. MSP's is bar far the best one i've heard.

351CJ · Aug 14, 2005

5-SpeedStallion said:
............Because of the way the V6 fires (even fire, IIRC), it is unnecessary performance-wise to have a crossover. The V8 needs it because it is odd-fire I believe, and because of that, it has a crossover stock. Now, this is not to say that a crossover could not change the SOUND, but it is not needed to even the flow.

You're on the right track, but don't quite have it right.

I agree that with the 4.0 V6 you do not need an X or H pipe.
The reason is that the 4.0 fires:
right bank - left bank - right - left - right -left.
So the exhaust flow will always be the same between the right and left pipe.

However an X or H will change the sound of the exhaust.

As far a Ford 4.6 V8's go, the firing order makes the 2 cylinder banks fire:
right - right - left - right - left - left - right - left.
That is at times during an engine revolution 2 consecutive fires occur on the same bank. This is why an X pipe will give the best HP & torque, as an X does the best job evening out the exhaust flow in the tail pipes & mufflers.

H pipes are really only effective at lower RPMs.

MSP · Aug 14, 2005

@ALL

I have tested the 05 V6 Mustang with a true dual setup without any cross-over.. The result was a tremendous loss of power at the lower end, and a very raspy rice sound...

Please you must do one thing.. You must follow our lead in this because we have experience.. Do not read post and draw conclusions by people who do not own, or have actually tested the 05 V6.. The bottom line is testing.. Without testing, some are not really indulged to post opinions construde to be fact.. Be very carefull what you read here.. Make sure you are certain that the facts you read are backed up by ground floor testing..

I will not engage in any arguments over this, because alot of people here have watched the testing and follow up..

Once again, you must be very carefull which information you read, and choose to believe..

Also, the reason for a loss of power when the 05V6 is not crossed over is due to the scavenge effect the 05 V6 needs to produce power in each cylinder.. The info posted above by the previous 2 posters is false..

5-SpeedStallion · Aug 15, 2005

MSP said:
@ALL

I have tested the 05 V6 Mustang with a true dual setup without any cross-over.. The result was a tremendous loss of power at the lower end, and a very raspy rice sound...

Please you must do one thing.. You must follow our lead in this because we have experience.. Do not read post and draw conclusions by people who do not own, or have actually tested the 05 V6.. The bottom line is testing.. Without testing, some are not really indulged to post opinions construde to be fact.. Be very carefull what you read here.. Make sure you are certain that the facts you read are backed up by ground floor testing..

I will not engage in any arguments over this, because alot of people here have watched the testing and follow up..

Once again, you must be very carefull which information you read, and choose to believe..

Also, the reason for a loss of power when the 05V6 is not crossed over is due to the scavenge effect the 05 V6 needs to produce power in each cylinder.. The info posted above by the previous 2 posters is false..

I find it ironic that, despite my relatively extensive experience with regard to V6 Mustang exhaust and 351's obvious technical knowledge, you so quickly and definitively discount our input because we don't have "ground floor" experience w/ the '05 V6 and because our input doesn't exactly align w/ your opinion on the matter, yet you act as if you are a virtual expert on the subject of V6 exhuast just because you have had one installed.

With that said, I think there are a few things that need to be cleared up:

1. With regard to your announcement that what we had posted was "false" - The truth is, we both agreed that an X or H would change the sound but also said that "because the V6 fires evenly, a cross-over is not necessary to even the flow" ... which is true. That is not to inherently say that an X would be of NO benefit, but it is not as necessary for evening flow as it would be on a V8.

2. With regard to exhuast scavenging - Exhaust scavenging is a term thrown around a lot... not always truthfully. Exhaust scavenging is the negative pressure provided by the exhaust flowing through the headers and pipes that essentially "sucks" the exhaust gas OUT of the combustion chamber and the intake air INTO the chamber at the point that both valves are open. The main proponent of exhaust scavenging w/ regard to the exiting exhaust is its velocity. This velocity can be reduced 2 ways. The first way is when there is too much exhaust to flow through the pipe, which would arguably be the case when the V8 fires 2 cylinders on one side, which is why the X is needed to EVEN flow between the pipes. The second reason exhaust gas would slow is if the pipe is TOO big and the exhaust gas doesn't need to move quickly because there is so much pipe volume. So, both of these conditions can happen w/ a V8's exhaust because the volume of gas going through each side varies because of the way the engine fires, so the crossover is there to even the flow and keep the velocity up by eliminating too much or too little exhaust per pipe. Now, the V6 on the other hand fires evenly, so the variance in exhaust flow per pipe is very small. Therefore, the NEED for a cross-over is minimal, if not eliminated... because the flow is generally EVEN and because the two flows crossing in the middle certainly will not improve exhaust velocity.

Now, once again, I totally agree that the X or H can provide a sound difference. Also, and most importantly, I am not saying that no one should ever buy a cross-over, I am merely suggesting that one do some research before they purchase ANY exhaust system. No one system or setup is going to be the right one for everyone. So, don't buy a crappy system just because you don't have money for the setup you want... wait... you will be disappointed. Also, don't just go out and buy a system based on my recommendation or anyone else's recommendation... do your own research, think ahead to your long term goals and what system will complement that, listen to sound clips, check your price range and buy accordingly.

Good luck guys.

Chris_NY · Aug 15, 2005

I can confirm definitively and beyond a shadow of a doubt that what 5-SpeedStallion is saying is 100% correct. I can do this using my "extensive testing as you say" Because when I went to the muffler shop I asked for true dual with crossover and the guy didn't put one in even though I asked. It sounded like a gerbil died up in my tail pipes. Performance had improved but I was embarrased to tap it cus it sounded so foul. So I had a big fight with the guy because he said I didn't know what I was talking about and the sound would not change etc. etc. ... ( I wrote about this in another thread)

Long story short I gave the guy an ear beating and he put the crossover in. Sound wise it is 100 times better. Performance wise there is NO noticable difference. Maybe there is a teeny difference that might be shown on a Dyno sheet. But my ass to seat says it's same same... But my ear to headache ratio has improved 100 fold. It now sounds ideal until up over 5k even then it sounds very very sweet IMO. The guy never did admit the tone changed but whatever cus I know what I hear.

MSP · Aug 15, 2005

5-SpeedStallion said:
I find it ironic that, despite my relatively extensive experience with regard to V6 Mustang exhaust and 351's obvious technical knowledge, you so quickly and definitively discount our input because we don't have "ground floor" experience w/ the '05 V6 and because our input doesn't exactly align w/ your opinion on the matter, yet you act as if you are a virtual expert on the subject of V6 exhuast just because you have had one installed.

With that said, I think there are a few things that need to be cleared up:

1. With regard to your announcement that what we had posted was "false" - The truth is, we both agreed that an X or H would change the sound but also said that "because the V6 fires evenly, a cross-over is not necessary to even the flow" ... which is true. That is not to inherently say that an X would be of NO benefit, but it is not as necessary for evening flow as it would be on a V8.

2. With regard to exhuast scavenging - Exhaust scavenging is a term thrown around a lot... not always truthfully. Exhaust scavenging is the negative pressure provided by the exhaust flowing through the headers and pipes that essentially "sucks" the exhaust gas OUT of the combustion chamber and the intake air INTO the chamber at the point that both valves are open. The main proponent of exhaust scavenging w/ regard to the exiting exhaust is its velocity. This velocity can be reduced 2 ways. The first way is when there is too much exhaust to flow through the pipe, which would arguably be the case when the V8 fires 2 cylinders on one side, which is why the X is needed to EVEN flow between the pipes. The second reason exhaust gas would slow is if the pipe is TOO big and the exhaust gas doesn't need to move quickly because there is so much pipe volume. So, both of these conditions can happen w/ a V8's exhaust because the volume of gas going through each side varies because of the way the engine fires, so the crossover is there to even the flow and keep the velocity up by eliminating too much or too little exhaust per pipe. Now, the V6 on the other hand fires evenly, so the variance in exhaust flow per pipe is very small. Therefore, the NEED for a cross-over is minimal, if not eliminated... because the flow is generally EVEN and because the two flows crossing in the middle certainly will not improve exhaust velocity.

Now, once again, I totally agree that the X or H can provide a sound difference. Also, and most importantly, I am not saying that no one should ever buy a cross-over, I am merely suggesting that one do some research before they purchase ANY exhaust system. No one system or setup is going to be the right one for everyone. So, don't buy a crappy system just because you don't have money for the setup you want... wait... you will be disappointed. Also, don't just go out and buy a system based on my recommendation or anyone else's recommendation... do your own research, think ahead to your long term goals and what system will complement that, listen to sound clips, check your price range and buy accordingly.

Good luck guys.

Didnt mean for it to come out that way.. I did try both ways, and forgetting about the sound for a moment, the low end torque was not there, when the Y or X was not present in the system.. After the X was set in place, I noticed the engine felt alittle better than stock.. Now, you and ChrisNY are correct in terms of huge power gains.. My main contention was the sound, which you have now stated a different opinion, or perhaps I misunderstood your direction.. I myself do find the post I have quoted to be valid, but the essence of the post has changed dramatically, then the posts I was prompted to respond to..

Most guys who perform the exhaust mods are not looking for any power gains.. Our point of contention was all based on the sound catagory.. Like I said, the post I quoted shares a different opinion than the one I was forced to respond to.. Your tune has changed, and with that thanks for the input..

Your other post..

This sounds retarded and anti-V6, but really the only way to get the deep tone you're looking for is w/ a V8. Honestly, I've heard a LOT of V6 Mustangs (3.8's MOSTLY, but not all) and, truthfully, all the ones w/ "performance" exhaust have sounded at least noticeably "ricey." This is why I recommend that people just get GT take-offs. They are relatively cheap, and they aren't really loud... because loud + V6 almost always = "ricey."

Truth is, and this sounds bad too, but I've never heard another V6 that sounded as good as mine. Not to say that it sounds anywhere near as good as a V8, but it's louder than stock, had a nice tone at idle, and gets louder w/o getting really raspy in the high RPMs.... my setup is stock Cobra Take-offs w/ no crossover or anything. Because of the way the V6 fires (even fire, IIRC), it is unnecessary performance-wise to have a crossover. The V8 needs it because it is odd-fire I believe, and because of that, it has a crossover stock. Now, this is not to say that a crossover could not change the SOUND, but it is not needed to even the flow. However, it still stands that I have NEVER heard a "performance" exhaust V6 that didn't sound ricey, no matter what setup they had.

Anyway, these are just my experiences having been around to hear a LOT of V6 Mustangs, and in my experience, you cannot avoid a "ricey" tone at high RPM's w/ a "performance" exhaust... it is seemingly inherent w/ the V6.

@ALL
So as you can see 5-SpeedStallion changed his tune somewhat, so he is our friend now.. LOL!!

Based on the last highlighted statement, and your new position after hearing mine, whould it be ok for you to admit that you may have been wrong and mis-leading? If not its ok..

351CJ · Aug 15, 2005

MSP said:
Because of the way the V6 fires (even fire, IIRC), it is unnecessary performance-wise to have a crossover. The V8 needs it because it is odd-fire I believe, and because of that, it has a crossover stock.

Almost ALL 90 degree V - V8s ever made are "even fire", including the Ford 4.6L V8.

Even fire means that EVERY cylinder fires at the same amount of crankshaft rotation.

You are confusing even firing with whether 2 consecutive fires occur on the same or the opposite cylinder bank. In the case of most American V8s even though there have consecutive fires on the same bank they occur at the exact same crankshaft rotation amount which is 90 degrees. This is an inherent feature of a 90 degree V8 with shared rod journals on the crankshafts.

Some V8s (like Ferrari V8s) have every consecutive cylinder fire on the opposite bank. This system is often referred to as having a 180 degree crank. You can even buy 180 degree cranks for Chevy small blocks. 180 degree cranks are not usually used in American V8s because they are harder to balance and generally favor high end power rather than low RPM torque and they did not work well with a single carburator on a manifold (Ferraris used 8 bbl carbs and later fuel injection with a separate inlet for each cylinder).

60 degree V6s are also inherently even firing - every 120 degrees (eg Ford 4.0 SOHC, 3.0L Duratech & Vulcan). 120 degree V6s as well as flat 6s are also inherently even firing. 90 degree V6s are not even firing unless split rod journal crankshafts are used (eg Ford 3.8L Windsor). When American 90 degree V6s first came out they were pretty much V8s with 2 cyliders missing so they had uneven firing orders. Later split rod jounal crankshafts were added to even the firing order.

351CJ · Aug 15, 2005

MSP said:
Also, the reason for a loss of power when the 05V6 is not crossed over is due to the scavenge effect the 05 V6 needs to produce power in each cylinder.. The info posted above by the previous 2 posters is false..

As 5 Speed Stallion said, most of this talk about "scavenging effect" is BS. If you want exhaust scavenging you need to put long tube headers on. One of the flaws of almost all exhaust systems on production cars is that the length of the exhaust runners (on the exhaust manifolds) is different from one cylinder to the next. This causes uneven exhaust gas flow in the entire exhaust system whether you have consecutive fires on the same or opposite cylinder banks.

The primary purpose of LT headers is to give exactly equal runner lengths from the engine head exhaust port to the point at which they join to a single exhaust pipe. By having all exhaust pulses spaced at equal intervals in the exhaust pipe is how you get scavenging effect.

The most dramatic examples of this type of exhaust system (equal length LT headers) are the famous "bundle of snakes" exhaust systems used on the Ford GT40 race cars of the 1960s and the Ford DOHC Indy engine of the 1960s.

5-SpeedStallion · Aug 15, 2005

351CJ said:
Almost ALL 90 degree V - V8s ever made are "even fire", including the Ford 4.6L V8.

Even fire means that EVERY cylinder fires at the same amount of crankshaft rotation.

You are confusing even firing with whether 2 consecutive fires occur on the same or the opposite cylinder bank. In the case of most American V8s even though there have consecutive fires on the same bank they occur at the exact same crankshaft rotation amount which is 90 degrees. This is an inherent feature of a 90 degree V8 with shared rod journals on the crankshafts.

Some V8s (like Ferrari V8s) have every consecutive cylinder fire on the opposite bank. This system is often referred to as having a 180 degree crank. You can even buy 180 degree cranks for Chevy small blocks. 180 degree cranks are not usually used in American V8s because they are harder to balance and generally favor high end power rather than low RPM torque and they did not work well with a single carburator on a manifold (Ferraris used 8 bbl carbs and later fuel injection with a separate inlet for each cylinder).

60 degree V6s are also inherently even firing - every 120 degrees (eg Ford 4.0 SOHC, 3.0L Duratech & Vulcan). 120 degree V6s as well as flat 6s are also inherently even firing. 90 degree V6s are not even firing unless split rod journal crankshafts are used (eg Ford 3.8L Windsor). When American 90 degree V6s first came out they were pretty much V8s with 2 cyliders missing so they had uneven firing orders. Later split rod jounal crankshafts were added to even the firing order.

That was actually my quote... and obviously I had the wrong terminology, but I understand the principle of more than one cylinder firing on the same bank.

BTW, MSP, I changed my tune, in a way, because of all the V6's I've EVER heard, 05 or pre-05, w/ "performance" exhaust have sounded raspy. It seems as if yours doesn't, so I've now heard one that doesn't.

... Oh, and I'm glad we can be friends

MSP · Aug 16, 2005

5-SpeedStallion said:
That was actually my quote... and obviously I had the wrong terminology, but I understand the principle of more than one cylinder firing on the same bank.

BTW, MSP, I changed my tune, in a way, because of all the V6's I've EVER heard, 05 or pre-05, w/ "performance" exhaust have sounded raspy. It seems as if yours doesn't, so I've now heard one that doesn't.

... Oh, and I'm glad we can be friends

LOL!! All right!! Made friends in a somewhat questionable debate!! WOW!! There is hope for us all guys!! I wasnt sure if 5-SpeedStallion and I would work out the details, but looks like all is ok.. LOL!! You guys know how it is around here.. Once people disagree about 1 thing, its hard to agree on others.. 5-SpeedStallion and I were able to come to a suitable outcome.. You should all be proud!

shooterm1 · Aug 16, 2005

MSP said:
You guys know how it is around here.. Once people disagree about 1 thing, its hard to agree on others...

not really ,,, we all love Mustangs / right?

rygenstormlocke · Aug 16, 2005

This is all good information!

MSP, are you running duals or single, its hard to tell from your avatar. I'm about to go duals with GT take offs but want to make sure I do it right. My mechanic says not to go true duals on my ride due to back pressure. What kind of config are you running on your ride?

Does anyone have any input on the kits that are out on the market, JBA makes a Y pipe kit and true dual and Magnaflow makes a Y pipe as well.

Thanks.

MSP · Aug 17, 2005

rygenstormlocke said:
This is all good information!

MSP, are you running duals or single, its hard to tell from your avatar. I'm about to go duals with GT take offs but want to make sure I do it right. My mechanic says not to go true duals on my ride due to back pressure. What kind of config are you running on your ride?

Does anyone have any input on the kits that are out on the market, JBA makes a Y pipe kit and true dual and Magnaflow makes a Y pipe as well.

Thanks.

Yes I am running a true dual setup, through the MagnaFlow XPIPE.. Of course you understand to have a deeper grunt, you must follow my path....? However, I believe the HPIPE may allow for an even deeper grunt on the 05V6.. Why dont you pioneer the HPIPE, and see which one is truely deeper? This will make your exhaust work more important to the masses, and allow for more choices to all..

So my advice is go true dual, and use an HPIPE or Prochamber.. Also, never listen to your mechanic.. They are lazy!! lol!!

RULE OF THUMB ABOUT MECHANICS

----A Mechanic with an opinion is a "Problem"!---

Questions Mechanics should answer..

1. How much?

2. What time can I pickup my car?

5-SpeedStallion · Aug 17, 2005

rygenstormlocke said:
This is all good information!

MSP, are you running duals or single, its hard to tell from your avatar. I'm about to go duals with GT take offs but want to make sure I do it right. My mechanic says not to go true duals on my ride due to back pressure. What kind of config are you running on your ride?

Does anyone have any input on the kits that are out on the market, JBA makes a Y pipe kit and true dual and Magnaflow makes a Y pipe as well.

Thanks.

Go duals.

1. More room for airflow with the addition of other mods

2. The whole thing about loss of backpressure is crap. The duals, or any exhaust for that matter, may raise the rpm of your peak power slightly, but basically, as long as the piping is 2.25 you'll be fine.

The whole "losing backpressure" thing is way overdone. Now, you don't want to go TOO big on the piping and cause a significant loss in exhaust velocity, but in general, there are hundreds of dynos that say true duals help. Not a lot, but they don't hurt the car's hp output.

rygenstormlocke · Aug 17, 2005

Thanks guys, I'll get a quote for true duals with a H pipe. I'll keep you posted.

Zodiac · Aug 17, 2005

Hey MSP, I dont remember this one... what size pipes did you go with? 2.25 or 2.5?

351CJ · Aug 18, 2005

One more comment.

The reason why duals on a V6 w/o H or X sounds like complete rice is that your are effectively listening to two 3 cylinder engines with their own exhust systems.

So as said before while an H or X pipe should not significantly change HP or TQ, they will change the sound as they combine those two 3 cylinder engines' exhaust.

PUT the COFFIN back in the Ground

Zodiac

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