puttin it all together

[jlangholzj]

So here's the deal:

I'm gonna trade off our 90' crown Vic for a 4 bolt main 351C that will end up with 2V heads.

This is going to be built up eventually (hopefully) for a 69' sports roof. In the meantime, however, it will reside in my 68' coupe!


anyway... I've attached an word file with the goodies that I'm wanting to add. These are probably all Effed up from where they should be...but what I'm looking for is: a pretty high end street machine....I'm pretty much looking for something thats the next step up from where my 289 is (in performance parts that is)

so thats why i *tried* :\ to keep the powerband(s) as low as i could. Millage is NOT an issue here, but driveability should be considered.

Like i said, look at this like a 2yr. olds try at a Picasso!

down below are the summit numbers for those who might not have word


****the only two items i am not sure on are the valve springs and the crank. I would like to stroke this guy out, and I figured I would need stiffer valve springs with all of the good stuff i want to add.

think of this like a guideline to the general idea that I'm going for.....



thanks especially for you patience!

-John


LUN-00093LK
WND-7516
CRN-750-1700
HOK-6913HKR
HLY-0-81670

ESP-103523850
LUN-73815K2LUN

 

[jlangholzj]

opinions?

 

[jlangholzj]

nothing huh? hmmmmm maybe I'm in the wrong forum......

 

[StangDreamin']

If I may suggest......

Okay, John; let's look at a few "realities" here.

First of all; I'm thinking that, unless the Vicky is totally hosed up, you're getting somewhat scr3wed on the deal. The roller 5.0/5.8 would be a good "step up" from your 289! Yes the Cleveland would also be a great "step up"; but you may be taking on a lot in one great chunk!

1.) In the matter of a "4-bolt Cleve block": There isn't an enormous difference between "2-bolt main" and "4-bolt main" Cleveland blocks. You want to know the big difference? "4-bolt blocks" spent a little extra time in the machine shop, getting two extra bolt holes drilled and tapped in the already, pretty-stout main webs. Main caps were "extra-machined" in the same manner. If you're gonna eventually stroke this engine; you could have that extra work done by the same machine shop that will be doing the other stuff you didn't know that you will want done. I'll get to the "other stuff" in the next bullet point!

2.) I absolutely love Clevelands - FE 427's-428's are about the only engines that make my heartbeat stronger and faster. However, there are a few "issues" with the Cleveland block's design that need to be addressed.
First is "core shift", wherein the foundary molds (cores) didn't stay perfectly in-line, and therefore the cylinder wall thickness may not be perfect.
Oh by the way, those cylinder walls are relatively kinda thin, which is why the block is called a "thinwall casting". As a result, cylinder wall/cylinder skirt failure can be an issue. Especially when you stroke it! On a stock stroke, the maximum recommended overbore is 0.040" if the block is sonic-checked and Magna-Fluxed to verify cylinder integrity. Commonly, knowledgeable machine shops will refuse to go more that 0.030" overbore; which, with a stock crank, results in 357CID (which is what my Cougar's Cleveland displaces). It's not a "Mopar Magnum"; but the numbers work well for revolvers Even at "30-over" with a stock crank, you might be looking at problems down the road.
Regardless, when you're looking at the increased stroke (and cylinder-skirt stress) of a "393 Cleveland"; you'd best be served by having the block sonic-checked and Magnafluxed - you're spending some money on this engine; and you might want to make sure it's not gonna break in the first few hundred miles. While you're at it; the machine shop could be machining your main caps and block for 4 bolts.........

3.) U.S. 2V Cleve heads have one big deficiency - open chambers! Yes, you can work with them, but cam selection and ignition timing become more crucial. Ford Australia made 2V heads with the "quench" combustion chambers, like the Boss351/351H.O. 4V heads had. Much less chance of pre-detonation ("spark knock"); because the combustion flame front is more directed than with the open chambers. Aussie 2V heads are availble in the U.s.; but grab your wallet!

4.) Did I mention "cam selection"? Yes, I did. In my discussions on another board; I came across a guy who seems to like campaigning '71-2-3 Cougars, as well as spending a lot of time on 1320-cars. He recommended an "older" cam desgin than that which you picked; here's a Summit P/N: SUM-K5200
Digging around for my birth certificate one day, I stumbled across the 28-year-old cam card for the cam I put in my Gran Torino (351C-2v). Guess what; the lift/duration numbers out of the Summit catalog could have been copied off the card. Lunati and I think Crane grind cams with comparable profiles; I'm just too lazy to look up part numbers!

5.) One glaring, frightening problem with U.S. 2V heads - 2-piece valves! Yeah, the valve stem and valve head are two separte pieces, induction-welded together. Lots of people (including me) have seen these valves pushed hard at high RPM's without a problem. Lots of other people have had them separte at 1500 RPM; with the valve head doing all kinds of nasty things to the cylinder head, piston and cylinder before the car gets shut down. If you're gonna really work this engine, grab your wallet again and have one-piece valves (a lot of people swear by Ferrea) fitted. While you're in there, you might have the machine shop fit the cylinder heads with rocker studs - for those fancy rockers.....

6.) Because of the design of Cleveland heads, headers actually fit tighter to the block; which can be good (better shock-tower clearance), but it can also be a pain - especially when your starter cr@ps out (Ask me how I know. I wish the 90's "mini-torque" starters had come out a decade + earlier!) You might want to start checking out the fitment of 351C Hooker Comps in a '68 before you buy.... (This should not be as much of an issue with the '69-'70 chassis.)


That's about all I can think of at this time (in my Flexoril-induced fog) - older and wiser engine heads, feel free to add your wisdom!

You'll have to spend a little more time and money on a Cleve... but it's worth it!

 

[jlangholzj]

this is getting coppied and saved...


after the....lack.....of responses, i started doing more poking around. Talking to local machine guy's etc. and i reaally got off of the 4-bolt wagon i was on. I also thought about building up the 5.0..sure i already have it. yeah it would give me more. but I just would like to stick with the old stuff..call me young and dumb. (i've been called worse ) but that's just me. I too heard that some have beat the livin ***** out of these engines and they haven't even skipped a beat.

+1 on the stoke though! thanks a TON for pointing that out. I guess i knew about the "core shift" but I never knew they were that thin. The blocks that I am currently looking at are in running condition, so I'm hoping that they won't need too much boring. but after that advice, i basically said screw the stroke.

i heard the 2V heads were a lot more "streetable" than the 4V, but I'll do some digging on the differences. hopefully in the future, it will get a new set of aluminums.....

the end result: I'm not looking for a new motor for my 68. That old gal will be a 289 for life. BUT...The whole reason why I'm building this up is b/c sometime after i get my feet back under me, I want to drop about 2K on an old, rusty 69 sportsroof that I can hack and chop. THAT will have the 351. but, for break-in, it will spend time in my 68 (since i obviously don't have the 69 )


but how about the intake/carb? I've only had experience with the eddelbrock performer intake, and I'd like to go a different route....suggestions?

 

[StangDreamin']

Don't forget that 1968 is the year that Ford introduced the 302; which, with some mods, became the "5.0". For the most part, the major difference is that you won't have to convert the engine to "roller lifters" if you want them - Ford already did it for you (on the 5.0)! Being generally a lazy/impatient SOB; I'd be looking at the Vic's EFI setup as well.......

I'm gonna stick with a 357C in the Cougar; but, like you, I have this wild idea of a second car after the Coog's "done". I'm thinking '67-68 FB..... even if I "have to" save up and throw 15 grand on a Chinese clone body. THAT'S gonna get a stroker Cleveland - I'll just have to save up lots more money!.

In case you didn't notice, I sent you a reply PM.

 

[D.Hearne]

Great job 'splaining the Cleveland differences StangDreaming. At least now jlangholzj has acknowledged that one doesn't need a 4 bolt main Cleveland for a performance build. I told him this before but he seemed to shrug it off. ...........But your info on the 5.0 needs a bit of clarification. The "5.0" nonclementure was given to the 302 in 1979. The roller motors didn't start till 1985. So a 5.0 can have either flat tappet or roller cams. Even after the roller blocks went into production, the pickups and vans had roller blocks with flat tappet cams till 1991. The Vic/Town car/Marquis 5.0 went roller in 1986.

 

[StangDreamin']

True, I did take a shortcut on that one.

He said the Vicky was a '90 though; so it wasn't like I deliberately lied to him about its engine.

2-bolt/4-bolt: I bought my first car ('73 Gran Torino) in April of 1980 from my oldest brother. Since he was by then a confirmed (and highly paid) Civil Engineer geek who had already traded in his slide-rule holster for a pouch carrying an HP-41CV calculator; I assumed that he was completely current on the Cleveland. Not so! When he mentioned that his-then-my Grannie had a 4-bolt (Labor Strike at the Cleveland plant, and the guys in Detroit grabbed the first block they could find in the warehouse to ship the car); it was with "the aura of mysticism", becuse that was the folklore of the era. Wasn't until a year or so ago that I found out that extra main-cap bolts were pretty much all that was different about the block!
Another legend shot down in flames.....

I still miss that car; and her memory is one of the two reasons why I'm working on the red-headed stepchild that is now my Cougar. Fan blades to rear axle, it's the same powertrain as the high-school car that took "my new wife" and I on our honeymoon; 25 years ago next month.
Kills me (a little) that I won't have "the Cat prowling" by our anniversary

EDIT: I don't remember "seeing" yu on the 335 Forum at Network54; but I'll ask anyway. Have you heard anything new about Todds aluminum Cleveland block? Have any been machined and "built up" yet?

 

[D.Hearne]

I rarely go onto the 335 site. I've dabled in the Clevleland and 400's occasionally. Only one I have now is a 72 351C that I've been trying to sell. Market's kinda soft on these things. Its a shame too great motors that they are. I get a kick like you on the guys who brag on having a 4 bolt anything. That was started by the Chevy crowd way back when. "So you've got a 4 bolt main motor?" And that makes it fast, how?

 

[StangDreamin']

Yeah, about the only thing the 4-bolts bring to the table is a little less likelihood of the crank walking under hard stress - as long as the webs stay together! Now, when I was a mindless teen-ager, that was probably a good thing for me; 'cause I sometimes (only sometimes?) would push that poor engine well into valve float and beyond while pulling a hill or something equally stupid..... it's a wonder I never separated a valve and tried to spit it out the tailpipe.

Now that I'm a lot older and (marginally) wiser..... I just don't see the need for doing stupid stuff like that anymore; so I don't see where the extra machining and bolts are really necessary. More interested in scraping together the dough to go one-piece on the valves; because those suckers don't seem to have any set point at which they separate! I saw a 400 in the shop at our auto repair contractor... came out of some snowbird's '78 LTD Brougham (Gawd, they're coming back to town already!). We're talkin' the Exxon Valdez of big Fords!
The 80-year old was the original purchaser and he had a 30-year total of 41,000 on the clock when he started it up for the first time since he'd gone back to Wisconsin for the summer. Car was sitting in his carport, idling; when "It made a lot of noise..."
Kennedy half dollar-sized hole in the piston top, Grand Canyon-sized gouge that actually penetrated the lower water jacket. Anybody got an extra 335 "M" block laying around?

Yeah, one-piece valves sound awfully good right now.

 

[jlangholzj]

Great job 'splaining the Cleveland differences StangDreaming. At least now jlangholzj has acknowledged that one doesn't need a 4 bolt main Cleveland for a performance build. I told him this before but he seemed to shrug it off. ...........But your info on the 5.0 needs a bit of clarification. The "5.0" nonclementure was given to the 302 in 1979. The roller motors didn't start till 1985. So a 5.0 can have either flat tappet or roller cams. Even after the roller blocks went into production, the pickups and vans had roller blocks with flat tappet cams till 1991. The Vic/Town car/Marquis 5.0 went roller in 1986.

yeah well.....young dumb and stupid all at the same time...you can remember back that far can't you?


still nothing on the intake tho......any thoughts?

also...heads? i still haven't had time to look, but is there something out there that WONT break my wallet? if there is such a thing... but what would be some suggestions on heads?


thanks

 

[StangDreamin']

Okay, what heads are presently on the engine? You don't know? Take a look at the second post in THIS THREAD.

4V heads are great - starting at about 4000RPM. Below that, the gigantic port/runner size leads to slow movement of air. The narrower 2V ports and runners move air faster at lower (READ: "On the street") RPMS. So, is this going to be for a 1320-car or a street machine? That decision provides the answers to the "Which intake? Which heads?" question!

For example: I'm not planning on taking the Coog to the track; just want a nice, reasonable car that will coincidently shock the H*** out of the "ricer tuner boyz" at the stoplight. So I'm (for now) sticking with the stock U.S. open-chamber 2V heads presently on the car. I'll feed them with an Edlebrock #2750 intake sitting under a Holley 600 with vacuum secondaries. Done it before on the Torino, and it worked for me; though a 650 CFM Holley might be a litte better at feeding it when the "Go Fast, Go LOUD" pedal is mashed to the floor.

A lot of people will stand up and laugh; saying that the particular intake I spec'd/bought has nothing going for it, other than four holes (instead of two) in the top of the carb mounting boss. To which, I reply "Yeah" and "Done it before on the Torino, and it worked for me..." (must be an echo in here).

If I were making a quarter-car; I'd go with the 4V heads and a suitable intake from Edlebrock or Weiand - probably with a 750 CFM Holley 4150. If I were filthy rich, I might look at aluminum heads from either AFD or CHI in either 2V or 4V configuration; depending on whether it was going on a street car or a track car.

But that's just me........

 

[D.Hearne]

yeah well.....young dumb and stupid all at the same time...you can remember back that far can't you?


still nothing on the intake tho......any thoughts?

also...heads? i still haven't had time to look, but is there something out there that WONT break my wallet? if there is such a thing... but what would be some suggestions on heads?


thanks

Intake choices are somewhat limited on Clevelands. For a street motor you can't go wrong with a dual plane. Even with the 4 bbl heads. The stock iron 4 bbl intake is probably as good as anything else for a street intake. The one stock 4 bbl Cleveland I drove never lacked for bottom end torque. This was a 71 Torino with quench heads. Put 4bbl heads on along with a single plane intake and a big cam, and you will be missing a lot on the bottom. Same as with any other motor. For heads start your hunt here: Ford 335 "Cleveland" Series Engine Forum Check out the classifieds there, you'll find what you want.