Road course suspension upgrades?

Red Barchetta · Feb 6, 2004

jikelly said:
...I think my car handles really well except one wired thing. It tends to hop around coners. Is'nt that kinda wierd? Granted the pavement around town here in Lubbock is really rough and crapy...

What do you mean by hop around corners? Is it the front end? Rear end? Do you mean that as you go around a corner over an uneven surface that the rear end feels like it's moving around? If that's the case, welcome to the wonderful world of the live axle. There are things you can do to help with that, but before we go any further, try and describe what's going on in more detail if you could.

HistoricMustang · Feb 6, 2004

Red, how many competition laps have your run?

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Red Barchetta · Feb 6, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
Red, how many competition laps have your run?

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Don't really know. Nothing on a road course, just auto-cross. I'm sure you have plenty more laps than I do. Hopefully I'll be able to hit some OT events next year. Right now, my car is in the garage awaiting the funds for some safety upgrades.

HistoricMustang · Feb 6, 2004

I understand the "fund" situation. Let me put something up here.

I am very proud of what me and the old girl have done. It makes no difference to me whether I finish first or last when all it said and done at the end of the year. Amature racing is a social thing with me and when I go door to door with someone at 140 at Daytona I respect them and what they say.

My ride is set up for me and I can only try to tell people what I think is best for the early models. It has worked for me and it will work for most people who ARE ON A BUDGET. If you have bucks then have at it with all the stuff that the mags have to offer, but keep one thing in mind, the fastest early model on the planet (www.cobraautomotive.com) uses a set up like mine.
Yes, it is high dollar and yes Chuck Bentley is a much better driver that I but you do not need to put late model technology on an early model to make it perform. In my humble opinion it hurts the car and it hurts the pocketbook.

Good Racing,
HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Red Barchetta · Feb 6, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
I understand the "fund" situation. Let me put something up here.

I am very proud of what me and the old girl have done. It makes no difference to me whether I finish first or last when all it said and done at the end of the year. Amature racing is a social thing with me and when I go door to door with someone at 140 at Daytona I respect them and what they say.

I agree. As I said, I'm envious that you're able to make as many events as you do. I would rather run 15 races and finish dead last every time than only be able to run one race and finish first. I'm not in it for the glory (though it is nice), I just like to drive my car.

HistoricMustang said:
My ride is set up for me and I can only try to tell people what I think is best for the early models. It has worked for me and it will work for most people who ARE ON A BUDGET. If you have bucks then have at it with all the stuff that the mags have to offer, but keep one thing in mind, the fastest early model on the planet (www.cobraautomotive.com) uses a set up like mine.
Yes, it is high dollar and yes Chuck Bentley is a much better driver that I but you do not need to put late model technology on an early model to make it perform. In my humble opinion it hurts the car and it hurts the pocketbook.

Good Racing,
HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

I agree that there are several things that are universal to all early model Mustangs, however, the greatest variable in every car is the person behind the wheel. It wouldn't surprise me if I were to get behind the wheel of your car and run slower than you. It also wouldn't surprise me to see you get behind the wheel of my car and watch you run slower than me.

Racing on a budget is a hard thing to do, due to the very nature of racing. And yes, you can make a Mustang perform very well with stock suspension components with minor modifications. You do not need TCP's coil over setup at $2200 to make your car fast as proven by the guys at CobraAutomotive. But I'm curious why you say it hurts the car? Do you mean it looses originality or do you mean by a performance perspective?

jikelly · Feb 6, 2004

Red Barchetta said:
What do you mean by hop around corners? Is it the front end? Rear end? Do you mean that as you go around a corner over an uneven surface that the rear end feels like it's moving around? If that's the case, welcome to the wonderful world of the live axle. There are things you can do to help with that, but before we go any further, try and describe what's going on in more detail if you could.

Sorry, it is the rear that hops around and yes it is mostly on uneven surfaces that it occurs. There is a little hop when I go around coners like say an on ramp to the loop but not as much. Of course since I've noticed it I have been a little leary of really pushing it even on a smooth surface. The thing you said about it being the wonderful world of live axle is true. I just wonder because I didn't start to notice it until a year ago. I wonder what it could be caused by because I have checked to make sure the leaf spring and axle are all tied on correctly. Could it somehow be my steering? My steering gearbox is giving me problems right now. It's way loose and I'm going to change it out next week.

67GTA-FB429 · Feb 6, 2004

As a person who considers racing all the time but has yet to do it....figure out what "class" you want to race and make sure your car conforms to the rules of that class.

My father wanted to drag the 67, I would rather road course the 67. Now that he has "checked out" I can start setting up the car to road course....granted a big block car will be a b**ch in the corners but hellonwheels in the straights....

I am trying to learn the rules of NHRA and SCCA at the same time because I want to drag one time for the "old man" as it was his money that paid for the motor.

Watch out Sears Point....!

Red Barchetta · Feb 7, 2004

jikelly said:
Sorry, it is the rear that hops around and yes it is mostly on uneven surfaces that it occurs. There is a little hop when I go around coners like say an on ramp to the loop but not as much. Of course since I've noticed it I have been a little leary of really pushing it even on a smooth surface. The thing you said about it being the wonderful world of live axle is true. I just wonder because I didn't start to notice it until a year ago. I wonder what it could be caused by because I have checked to make sure the leaf spring and axle are all tied on correctly. Could it somehow be my steering? My steering gearbox is giving me problems right now. It's way loose and I'm going to change it out next week.

This is just a guess and something else to take into consideration. Your steering could be magnifying the problem. Essentially, it could be that the rear isn't moving any more than before, it's just that with a worn out steering box, you have to give more input to counteract the rear end dancing around.

The factory rear suspension setup is designed to allow, as Ford put it, "slight horizontal wheel movement, helping to absorb small irregularities, and reduces road shcok and noise." Nothing like a little marketing spin to turn a design drawback into a positive feature. For hardcore OT or racing, you probably would want to do something about that like adding a pahnard bar or watts-link. But we're getting ahead of ourselves and by the time you're ready to step up to serious competition and major suspension modifications, you'll probably have seen it all.

When was the last time you replaced the bushings in the rear? You mentioned the shocks were only a couple years old. Check to make sure they're not leaking. Other than that, I don't know what else to tell you other than to systematically go through each suspension component to make sure it's functioning properly and not worn out due to age.

HistoricMustang · Feb 7, 2004

Red, believe most of the new "tech" stuff adds weight and it will sure add "cost" to the car. Perhaps the car will perform better but I have not had the opportunity to race door to door with an early model set up with all the new stuff. The road racers have stayed away from the new stuff at the track. That pretty much says it all.

I am a believer in keeping weight down (mine is at 2650# with no fuel/driver) and keeping the car loose. Heck, I do not even run sub frames for the above reasons. Different strokes for different folks.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Hopefully over the next few weeks I can begin putting up the basics of my "affordable" road racer at www.historicmustang.com under "tech on a budget". I sometimes call the old girl my "flexible flyer". If you have lots of dough no need to visit the site.

Red Barchetta · Feb 8, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
Red, believe most of the new "tech" stuff adds weight and it will sure add "cost" to the car. Perhaps the car will perform better but I have not had the opportunity to race door to door with an early model set up with all the new stuff. The road racers have stayed away from the new stuff at the track. That pretty much says it all...

That's a good question about the weight difference. I have no idea how much the TCP or GlobalWest stuff weighs in comparison to the factory components. Hey Lino, think you can weigh some parts for us? I'd be really curious to find out how much the stock upper and lower control arms weigh, in addition to the spring pearch and spring, shock, etc. vs. the TCP coilover setup. If possible, could you break it down by component (complete suspension, factory and TCP)? And if it's not too much to ask, could you weigh TCP's non-coilover pieces as well if there's a difference?

I wonder if part of the reason you don't see TCP's setup is that it's not legal for certain classes? Other than in AI/X, what other classes allow rod ends or non-stock suspension for early model cars?

Psydwaze · Feb 9, 2004

Red Barchetta said:
Hey Lino, think you can weigh some parts for us?

I don't have the stock weights handy but here are our 'shipping' weights and include packing materials and boxes. Actual component weights will be slightly less.

Front Coil-Over - 74 lbs
(Uppers, Lowers, Strutrods, Shocks, Springs, Mounts, all hardware.

Lower Arms - 17.2 lbs
(Arms, Ball Joints, Hardware)

Upper Arms - 20 lbs
(Arms, Ball Joints, Hardware)

Strut Rods - 10 lbs

Subframe Kit 1 - 18 lbs

Subframe Kit 2 - 24 lbs

Rear Coilover Kit - 150 lbs
(Frame, Shocks, Springs, Rear Housing, Trailing Arms, Torque Arm, Rockers, Hardware, and a 20 lb pallet)

We have compared weights vs. stock components and they are very similar. Under on some, over on others.

I wonder if part of the reason you don't see TCP's setup is that it's not legal for certain classes? Other than in AI/X, what other classes allow rod ends or non-stock suspension for early model cars?

Until American Iron our components were legal for unlimited classes only. 2003 AIX rules didn't even allow our rear suspension so any events we participated in last year were do so without accruing points. Any vintage classes are generally pretty restrictive on non period correct components.

I have heard about the Cobra Automotive fastback and the track records it holds. A very fast car and driver indeed. I would love to see a vintage tech vs. current tech race. Other than some SAAC open track events here on the west coast we haven't really been able to run full boogie against a vintage racecar in a real race. We were the only vintage car in AI/AIX for Northern CA last year and there may be another '68 running this year, but that car will have our front and rear coil-over setups. There's been talk of an East vs. West AI/AIX event. Hopefully it works out this year.

mustangracer · Feb 9, 2004

Here's my 2 cents, and let me preface it by saying I've only raced in local autocrosses at my former Univeristy in SC about a dozen times or so. I was running on Comp t/a ZR 225/60-15. I didn't have any other vintage mustangs to run against, but I did usually run better than 90% of the other late model mustangs there.

I run the setup below, and despite Historic's suggestion not to run a rear bar, I've found even with the 3/4 rear bar, I can bring the back end of the car around fairly easily when I'm not paying attention, or need to. The rear bar does seem to help plant the rear earlier leaving the corner, allowing me to accelerate sooner. This setup seems to work ok, except on the tightest 180's, but that's probably due to still using the original Non-ps box. I'd like to get a faster ratio flaming river box. With the '71 spindles, I think the steering effort has decreased since the tie rod arm is slightly longer than the '65, by how much I don't know.

An aside on wheels, '65-66 will take a 235/60 on 15x8 with 5" BS in the back, and 225/60 on 15/7 w 4" BS in the front quite nicely. The 235 looks w-i-d-e on such a small car. Diamond Racing can make some spun steel rims in just about any size and BS you need, they only run 21 lb for a 16x7, about the lightest steel wheel you'll find.

As someone else said, more brakes is almost never overkill, especially in the brake fade department.

In my opinion, you could build a car capable of great things, but if you aren't ready to drive the hairy beast it'll probably be, you won't be having as much fun as you'd like.

On the technical side, most authors I've read say all that can be done for vintage racers is lots of spring and sway bar to be legal. If all you are going to want to do is race for fun, then stiffen the chassis considerably and you can use less spring and sway bar, making the car more livable on rough(ie., normal road) surfaces.

ya, ya I talk too much...

Red Barchetta · Feb 9, 2004

Psydwaze said:
I don't have the stock weights handy but here are our 'shipping' weights and include packing materials and boxes. Actual component weights will be slightly less.

Front Coil-Over - 74 lbs
(Uppers, Lowers, Strutrods, Shocks, Springs, Mounts, all hardware.

Lower Arms - 17.2 lbs
(Arms, Ball Joints, Hardware)

Upper Arms - 20 lbs
(Arms, Ball Joints, Hardware)

Strut Rods - 10 lbs

Subframe Kit 1 - 18 lbs

Subframe Kit 2 - 24 lbs

Rear Coilover Kit - 150 lbs
(Frame, Shocks, Springs, Rear Housing, Trailing Arms, Torque Arm, Rockers, Hardware, and a 20 lb pallet)

We have compared weights vs. stock components and they are very similar. Under on some, over on others.

Cool! Thanks Lino! Anyone have weights on the stock components? Not that I don't believe what Lino says about being heavier than some and lighter than others, but it would still be nice to see.

mustangracer said:
...and despite Historic's suggestion not to run a rear bar, I've found even with the 3/4 rear bar, I can bring the back end of the car around fairly easily when I'm not paying attention, or need to. The rear bar does seem to help plant the rear earlier leaving the corner, allowing me to accelerate sooner.

This is a good example of what works for some and not for others. There are quite a few people who say they're faster without the rear bar, others say it helps. It all depends on how the suspension as a whole works together and how you tune your car to the track. Henry uses a 5 leaf leaf spring in the rear. Those tend to be pretty stiff, so the need for a rear bar may not be necessary. On a smooth track surface, that could work very well. On a not so smooth surface, a lighter spring with a sway bar may work better.

I recommend anyone who is interested in driving their car on a road course read "Chassis Engineering" by Herb Adams. It's an easy read with some really good information. Some of it can get a little complicated, but you get a really good idea of what's going on under your car. And if you want more reading, check out "Tune to Win" by Carroll Smith. He has a few other "...to Win" books, but I haven't had a chance to check those out yet. While all these books were written a while ago, the information is still relevant to our cars.

jesserose17 · Feb 9, 2004

If you retain C-4, I would suggest getting biggest trans cooler you can mount. I believe road racing will make them real hot. Most serious road racers use manual transmission. I would suggest either Toploader or Tremec Also better for performance wise.

CloneRanger · Feb 9, 2004

Hey Historic, what rims and rubber sizeings are you running??
Really looking forward to seeing your tech page happen...

Ben

mustangracer · Feb 9, 2004

Red Barchetta said:
There are quite a few people who say they're faster without the rear bar, others say it helps. It all depends on how the suspension as a whole works together and how you tune your car to the track. Henry uses a 5 leaf leaf spring in the rear. Those tend to be pretty stiff, so the need for a rear bar may not be necessary. On a smooth track surface, that could work very well. On a not so smooth surface, a lighter spring with a sway bar may work better.

I recommend anyone who is interested in driving their car on a road course read "Chassis Engineering" by Herb Adams. It's an easy read with some really good information. Some of it can get a little complicated, but you get a really good idea of what's going on under your car. And if you want more reading, check out "Tune to Win" by Carroll Smith. He has a few other "...to Win" books, but I haven't had a chance to check those out yet. While all these books were written a while ago, the information is still relevant to our cars.

Ya, exactly...I'da added this but thought I was spouting off too much... Both of these are where I pulled a lot of info.

CloneRanger · Feb 12, 2004

Bump!
C'mon guys!
More input!

Dinosawnj · Feb 13, 2004

CloneRanger said:
Bump!
C'mon guys!
More input!

I run BFG-R1's and Hoosier R3S03 225/50-15's on 15x7 steel wheels with
D-shape opennings. May try to squeeze 2245/50-15's on 15x8 wheels this season.

My setup is different from some around here. I run a full cage, thru the floor subframe connectors and additional under chassis bracing. 35+ yearold uni-bodies just flex too much. I'll trade a little weight to know my suspension points stay put (means that the car will react the same way consistently).

Up front I run GW UCA's & LCA's, TCP strut rods, rollerized spring perches, adjustable LCA pivot points, Baer bumpsteer tie-rods, Koni shocks, 520/680 Eibach progressive springs and a 1" sway bar. An export brace and a homemade Monte Carlo bar. My brakes are SSBC alum. 4 pot calipers, ducted with no dust shields. At the track I run Portfield R4's

In the rear I run 4 1/2 mid eyes with extra banding on the front half with GW Delum bushings, spring loaded under-ridders, a frame equalized panard bar, Carrara shocks and no rear sway bar (note: if autocrossing on a tight course I would run a 1/2" rear bar). The brakes are 1 pot slider disc's (with a small rotor that will fit 14" wheels). I run hot street pad compounds in the rear.

Bob

streetstang67 · Feb 13, 2004

I'm not going to buy more rims for racing, but I have my old 14x6s or 14x5s, I'm not sure. What racing tires/slicks can I throw on there for the track? Or would I be better off using my radials on the 14x7s?

Dinosawnj · Feb 13, 2004

streetstang67 said:
I'm not going to buy more rims for racing, but I have my old 14x6s or 14x5s, I'm not sure. What racing tires/slicks can I throw on there for the track? Or would I be better off using my radials on the 14x7s?

Hoosier has a R3S04 in 225/50-14 and 205/55-14 but they want a 7" wide rim.

Road course suspension upgrades?

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