SCT Xcalibrator 2 Questions...

Give Me TP said:

You're talking about the pre-loaded tune(s) and the hand-held tuner itself. No professional tuner uses either to set up or adjust a true custom tune, they only use them to download and datalog.

Click to expand...

I know that the Advantage 3.0 software is used by the guys to tune the SCT Products. However a predator, correct me if I am wrong is not vin specific and already comes with a generic tune. SCT Xcals are vin locked and the tunes will vary among tuners as each tuner cna tune it to what the customer wants. I know I told my tuner what I wanted out of my Xcal and he did that for me when I spoke with him.

They use Diablo CMR or SCT software to write a tune, and I repeat, neither is better than the other. Your opening statement "I hear people *****ing...." makes you more than just a little foolish, since anybody that starts out trying to make a point by saying "I heard" or "I hear" is saying they basically know nothing the subject themselves.

Click to expand...

So if 100 people make threads about a certain product stating how they hate it and how they have issues, you are foolish enough to buy it huh? How about this one, I heard or read on another site that 3.55 gears are horrible for a NA 4V Cobra. Is that info right or is it wrong? Is it not good info to pass along? If that was the case, why even have any site as the info is of "hearsay" right? So your idea on that is hypocritical don't you think?

BTW I have never had to contact Diablo customer service. Maybe that's because it's so simple to use I don't have to, or maybe I'm a rocket scientist.

Click to expand...

Like I posted above where ED Clark, who is a well known tuner that tunes alot of cars a year, I am sure he has alot more experience in it than you. He has even commented on Diablos programs and the lack of customer service on a tuners technical end. Maybe you never really had to tune a car besides using a predator, where he had to write the tunes and the software they had locked up.

Give Me TP said:

You're talking about the pre-loaded tune(s) and the hand-held tuner itself. No professional tuner uses either to set up or adjust a true custom tune, they only use them to download and datalog. They use Diablo CMR or SCT software to write a tune, and I repeat, neither is better than the other. Your opening statement "I hear people *****ing...." makes you more than just a little foolish, since anybody that starts out trying to make a point by saying "I heard" or "I hear" is saying they basically know nothing the subject themselves.

BTW I have never had to contact Diablo customer service. Maybe that's because it's so simple to use I don't have to, or maybe I'm a rocket scientist.

Click to expand...

Yes, the voice of reason and personal experience speaks again. Thank you.

Firsthand experience from friends who had them, let alone the use of these mustangs sites helped me as well. Then on top of that what the tuners had to say. By your thinking all of these sites should be ignored as you can't learn anything huh?

Firsthand experience BY ME, not what I "heard", says the Predator custom tune in my PERSONAL vehicle has yielded a virtually flat 13.0 A/F and over 300 rwhp in the real world. Customer service from the Diablo CMR dealer I use PERSONALLY has been nothing short of outstanding. Repeat secondhand knowledge all you want, rant all you want, be a paid or unpaid mouthpiece for SCT products all you want, you're still WRONG.

I am glad your SCT XCAL 2 tune works well for you. My Predator custom tune works great for me. Anytime I see anyone in posts such as these claim that SCT tuning software is somehow better than Diablo CMR tuning software in and of itself, I have no problem setting things straight. Again, the most important thing is the ABILITY and KNOWLEDGE of the person writing your tune, not which software is being used to write it. I wish I was in the market today for a flash tuner; I could probably pick up a used Predator for cheap from someone who has been duped into thinking they must have what they've "heard" is the far superior XCal 2.

I heard the earth was flat... My lawyer friend said so!

Give Me TP said:

Firsthand experience BY ME, not what I "heard", says the Predator custom tune in my PERSONAL vehicle has yielded a virtually flat 13.0 A/F and over 300 rwhp in the real world. Customer service from the Diablo CMR dealer I use PERSONALLY has been nothing short of outstanding. Repeat secondhand knowledge all you want, rant all you want, be a paid or unpaid mouthpiece for SCT products all you want, you're still WRONG.

Click to expand...

Well according to your account, I guess anything that Scott and Jim @ VT engines post on Modular depot is bullshyt then since its not first hand but heard in a forum. I guess Tim and Andy are wrong on MPH as well since the info they post in threads not first hand either.

Like I said I have seen the crap 2 friends went through with their Predators and all the posts online of various people who didnt like them. So because of your "brilliant" theory you must buy every product yourself to figure out if its good or not instead of getting advice from sites like this? Hell that makes every reply you make worth shyt as its not first hand experience. I guess we dont have to listen to you. Hey Gang, might want to close this site down because these jokers think unless its first hand experience by yourself, its not worth it.

I am glad your SCT XCAL 2 tune works well for you. My Predator custom tune works great for me. Anytime I see anyone in posts such as these claim that SCT tuning software is somehow better than Diablo CMR tuning software in and of itself, I have no problem setting things straight. Again, the most important thing is the ABILITY and KNOWLEDGE of the person writing your tune, not which software is being used to write it. I wish I was in the market today for a flash tuner; I could probably pick up a used Predator for cheap from someone who has been duped into thinking they must have what they've "heard" is the far superior XCal 2.

Click to expand...

I never stated what software was better or worse. I stated what product was better. I commented on the software used among different companies was not the same, which you claimed it is. Guess what? Diablo doesnt use Advantage 3.0 so you are wrong there.

So if i design my own half @sses software to tune SCT products that has half the features, always locking up and crap like that, Ken B@ MD, Ed Clark and any other great tuner should get excellent results right?
Lets not worry that I don't have half the features that another software program has. Oh and lets say I refuse to answer any of my tech calls for my product too. I guess my product is just as great as anyone elses just because a great tuner can polish a pile of Shyt.

Then again its not first hand info so I shouldnt believe you anyways right?

^^^^^
Him got him panties in a wad

blackfang said:

I have to disagree. By that thinking all tuning products are created equal then.

Here are what other tuners like Ed Clark and Ken from Modular Depot think of the predator.
"There's alot more to it. How about the timing tables? Maybe the Predator adds global timing, we create a complete new table. Why add 3 degrees everywhere when you only need it at say, 5,000 rpm? For the Predator to ship and work with a multitude of cars, they have to be conservative. Once you get it, you can only add timing globally or in certain ranges. Plus, if you think you are qualified to retune your car, then have at it."

"1. Globally adjusted timing tables.
2. Glitchy software that sometimes locks up your computer.
3. ZERO technical support.
4. 75% of the adjustments simply do not work.
5. No fine tuning of spark and air fuel."

"My experience at the dyno with predators is that they use too much timing and are too lean. And that's not always but a large majority of the time. When enough fuel was added to correct the situation things like load and timing were way off. This means that they are adding fuel in the base fuel tables. Another clue to this is adding fuel based on RPM ranges. The results to this is a tune that doesn't take CORRECT load and timing into consideration. This results in a dangerous non-adaptive tune. And a few of these things didn't change the final timing even though we pulled 5 degrees twice. Junk.

These are just a few of the reasons SCT perfers to make tuners this way. You want a CORRECT tune right?

And Propellerhead, your comments about not having any issues with Diablo's customer support means you haven't tried using them. It's essentially none exisitant.

Ed"

I dunno. Two well known tuners right there and their views. Maybe thats why they now use SCT and not Diablo.

Click to expand...

The shop that is going to do my tune uses both tuners. I called and asked which one they recommended. I can get the Diablo for about 70.00 cheaper than the SCT but if there was that much of a difference then I would buy the SCT. I was told that the only real difference was that the SCT loads faster and they would both do the same thing essentially.

I trust the opinion of a shop that uses both over that of one who uses only one. It's like Taco Bell telling you Pepsi is the greatest and Micky D's telling you it's Coke.

My .02

Exactly. I don't use a flash tuner itself to adjust A/F or timing, I simply use it to download a tune, datalog, and adjust the speedometer for 4.10 gears. If I want to self-tune, I'll get the SCT Pro Racer Package and a XCal 2, but right now I don't want to do so, nor do many of the individuals when they first inquire about flash tuners. If the pre-loaded tune(s) that come with a XCal 2 are supposedly CORRECT already when you get them, why do you need the flash tuner to able to make any adjustments? Canned tunes are canned tunes, the Predator tune is a canned tune as are the XCal 2 tunes.

I see this issue has completely gone over your head.

Canned tunes are just that. The predator is a canned tune that is very conservative. Why? Because they are not vin specific. They cover a range of cars UNLIKE SCT's Xcal/Xcal2. Half the tuners who tune them probably do not know what mods or what the owner wants. The SCT Xcal's are vin locked and they only work with that ecu code of that vin#.

My tuner I talked with before he tuned the program asked 1, what was the ecu code of my car, and two, asked what mods I had and what would features I would like such as, my limiter what degree for my T-stat set at, O2's on or off, what kind of fuel octane, egr delete or not, etc.

In addition they completely re-write the timing and fuel tables UNLIKE the Predator. Predators either do it globally or in set ranges. So why add 3* of timing throughout 900-4500 rpm when you only need 2* at 3500 rpms? Heck some of the Predators are too lean and not the right timing. When you compensate it with fuel it screws up under load. Now you have a non adaptive tune.

The Xcals come with a 3 tunes from a tuner who has set them up to what he feels would be a good tune for that person. He might get that idea from talking to the owner of the car. The Extreme tune prgram allows the customer(me) to load other tunes from other people and tuners onto my xcal. It allows me to experiment with different tunes. All they have to do is email me the tune file, then I load it into the Xcal or make any of my own adjustments.
So if I have a tune from JMS and I later on decide to get more mods and I want to try a tune say from Andy at Modular Powerhouse all I do is load the tune he emailed me.

It also gives that customer ways of adjusting each of the 3 different tunes to the conditions at the time, i.e running a nitrous tune at the strip, changes of altitude and weather, etc. Not everyone runs a nitrous tune off the nitrous while normal driving. This allows them to adjust each one without having to send it back.

Give Me TP said:

^^^^^
Him got him panties in a wad

Click to expand...

Actually you just showed a huge amount of stupidity by stating that we shouldnt believe anything we see or hear on here because we didn't experience it for ourselves.

Is that all based on what you heard? Man, I was gonna quit this thread but I have to clarify a few things first.

blackfang said:

Canned tunes are just that. The predator is a canned tune that is very conservative. Why? Because they are not vin specific. They cover a range of cars UNLIKE SCT's Xcal/Xcal2. Half the tuners who tune them probably do not know what mods or what the owner wants. The SCT Xcal's are vin locked and they only work with that ecu code of that vin#.

Click to expand...

VIN locking has nothing to do with how the tune matches the car. VIN locking locks the device to the car, regardless of what tune is loaded on the device, canned or custom, conservative or aggresive.

blackfang said:

My tuner I talked with before he tuned the program asked 1, what was the ecu code of my car, and two, asked what mods I had and what would features I would like such as, my limiter what degree for my T-stat set at, O2's on or off, what kind of fuel octane, egr delete or not, etc.

Click to expand...

If you sent your tuner results of a dyno run with a/f ratio readings, then it is possible that the tune you got was actually customized to your car. That's one advantage the Xcal2 has over the Predator. The dealer can make fine adjustments to the a/f mixture based on your own car's dyno results when you initially purchase the device. That's when it becomes a true custom tune. Otherwise, setting the speed limiter, fan on/off temps, timing advance per octane used, egr on/off, O2 sensor on/off, etc. are just tweaks that any Predator or Xcal2 user can do. Yet SCT dealers do those basic settings for the new buyer then calls it a "custom tune". Welcome to creative marketing! You're basically at the same point as a Predator owner who changes those same settings, yet the Predator was sold with a "canned tune".

blackfang said:

In addition they completely re-write the timing and fuel tables UNLIKE the Predator. Predators either do it globally or in set ranges. So why add 3* of timing throughout 900-4500 rpm when you only need 2* at 3500 rpms? Heck some of the Predators are too lean and not the right timing. When you compensate it with fuel it screws up under load. Now you have a non adaptive tune.

Click to expand...

"Globally" is not clearly defined. The Predator adds a percentage of timing in two ranges. Not fixed degrees like a mechanical timing advancer would do. The Extreme Tune software does the same thing as the Predator such that it adds timing in ranges but also has an option for adding a fixed bias advance. An Xcal2 dealer *may* do a complete rework of your timing table using the Pro Racer Package during your initial purchase but that is highly unlikely. Not unless you provide them with datalogs beforehand. The Xcal2 has a little bit more flexibility in adjusting timing. I just don't agree with your statements here.

blackfang said:

The Xcals come with a 3 tunes from a tuner who has set them up to what he feels would be a good tune for that person. He might get that idea from talking to the owner of the car.

Click to expand...

SCT retracted their statement on the initially release ad. It *can* come loaded with 3 tunes but it's up to the individual dealers/vendors to load those tunes. It does not come preloaded with 3 tunes from SCT. Not all tuners/vendors provide 3 tunes. The initally release ad said it would come with 3 tunes. Not true.

blackfang said:

The Extreme tune prgram allows the customer(me) to load other tunes from other people and tuners onto my xcal. It allows me to experiment with different tunes. All they have to do is email me the tune file, then I load it into the Xcal or make any of my own adjustments.
So if I have a tune from JMS and I later on decide to get more mods and I want to try a tune say from Andy at Modular Powerhouse all I do is load the tune he emailed me.

Click to expand...

Exactly! The device is the method of loading a tune onto the car, regardless of where it came from or who wrote the tune. It also gives you limited adjustability. The Predator does this too.

blackfang said:

It also gives that customer ways of adjusting each of the 3 different tunes to the conditions at the time, i.e running a nitrous tune at the strip, changes of altitude and weather, etc. Not everyone runs a nitrous tune off the nitrous while normal driving. This allows them to adjust each one without having to send it back.

Click to expand...

Yes, but the Xcal2 isn't quite there yet. A tune sent to you by the vendor is either set up to be adjusted or tweaked on the Xcal2 device, or on your home computer using the Extreme Tune software. Not both. You can't tweak it on your computer, load it up on the Xcal2, then make more adjustments there. That capability is still coming down the pipe.

And the most important point, one more time. Regarding your tune(s) received on your brand new XCal 2, never once have you ever mentioned sending your selling dealer any dyno, A/F, MAF transfer, load, etc, data prior to the tune(s) being loaded on your new XCal 2. I have. My tune is not the generic Predator tune; you have never quite understood that yet. Mine is written from a copy of my original factory tune, with the above data included, tweaked several times following additional dyno and datalogging sessions on my car. Mine is essentially a dyno tune. Yours is based on a ECU code and list of mods. Mine is based on how my mods perform in my specific car, not based on how other's cars with the same ECU code and roughly the same mods perform. Mine is better, your canned tune could be if you do what I did and adjust it based on actual data. As far as the XCal 2 being set up to handle multiple tunes, like for nitrous, etc., I'd do that via a multi-position chip rather than a flash tuner. I personally wouldn't care for having to carry the device with me and have to hook it up in case the urge hit me to hit the bottle.

propellerhead said:

Is that all based on what you heard? Man, I was gonna quit this thread but I have to clarify a few things first.


VIN locking has nothing to do with how the tune matches the car. VIN locking locks the device to the car, regardless of what tune is loaded on the device, canned or custom, conservative or aggresive.

Click to expand...

Vin locking is that yes, but does the Predator need an ECU code? Is the ECU the same on a GT as a Cobra? No it isn't, they are different making the tunes not generic but specifically for that vehicle.

If you sent your tuner results of a dyno run with a/f ratio readings, then it is possible that the tune you got was actually customized to your car. That's one advantage the Xcal2 has over the Predator. The dealer can make fine adjustments to the a/f mixture based on your own car's dyno results when you initially purchase the device. That's when it becomes a true custom tune. Otherwise, setting the speed limiter, fan on/off temps, timing advance per octane used, egr on/off, O2 sensor on/off, etc. are just tweaks that any Predator or Xcal2 user can do. Yet SCT dealers do those basic settings for the new buyer then calls it a "custom tune". Welcome to creative marketing! You're basically at the same point as a Predator owner who changes those same settings, yet the Predator was sold with a "canned tune".

Click to expand...

Which I did when I talked to the tuner

"Globally" is not clearly defined. The Predator adds a percentage of timing in two ranges. Not fixed degrees like a mechanical timing advancer would do. The Extreme Tune software does the same thing as the Predator such that it adds timing in ranges but also has an option for adding a fixed bias advance. An Xcal2 dealer *may* do a complete rework of your timing table using the Pro Racer Package during your initial purchase but that is highly unlikely. Not unless you provide them with datalogs beforehand. The Xcal2 has a little bit more flexibility in adjusting timing. I just don't agree with your statements here.

Click to expand...

Yes it adds it in ranges. SCT adds it EXACTLY where it needs it, not assuming it might need it. Why are we just referring xcal2. There are SCT tuners that will rewrite the timing tables, which is something that isnt even offered on the predator. They have the ability to adjust it where they see fit. if you do not talk to your tuner about it, then yes you might not get it. I took the time to talk to mine.

SCT retracted their statement on the initially release ad. It *can* come loaded with 3 tunes but it's up to the individual dealers/vendors to load those tunes. It does not come preloaded with 3 tunes from SCT. Not all tuners/vendors provide 3 tunes. The initally release ad said it would come with 3 tunes. Not true.

Click to expand...

However, the Xcalibrator comes with 3 tunes. The problem SCT had was they put the XCAL 2 out too fast and they didnt finish writing the software. However, *most* tuners are putting 3 tunes in them now.

Exactly! The device is the method of loading a tune onto the car, regardless of where it came from or who wrote the tune. It also gives you limited adjustability. The Predator does this too.

Click to expand...

Correct it loads the tunes. Like I said the tune itself is better as the software provided by SCT is better, therefore making the overall product better. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be seeing so many people praising SCT and why 2 shops that tune in my town have dropped Diablo and went with SCT as they have had better results with SCT and happier customers.

Yes, but the Xcal2 isn't quite there yet. A tune sent to you by the vendor is either set up to be adjusted or tweaked on the Xcal2 device, or on your home computer using the Extreme Tune software. Not both. You can't tweak it on your computer, load it up on the Xcal2, then make more adjustments there. That capability is still coming down the pipe.

Click to expand...

Guess what? I was referring about the Xcal on that feature. Ya know there is more than one. It can do it as i have done it

blackfang said:

My tuner I talked with before he tuned the program asked 1, what was the ecu code of my car, and two, asked what mods I had and what would features I would like such as, my limiter what degree for my T-stat set at, O2's on or off, what kind of fuel octane, egr delete or not, etc.

Click to expand...

No mention here of supplying any dyno graphs, A/F data, or datalogs when he talked to the tuner, nor does the typical buyer when they first purchase a flash tuner, XCal 2 or otherwise. What a TOOL

It's called talking to him via pm discussing what he could do for me being he offered a deal for anyone on Mustangworld back in March 2005. Then when I placed the order a few days later he asked me some more questions about the above. I didn't think I had to discuss each little detail about it. You want to know what brand ****paper I use too?

So how much rwhp are you putting down with this tune from the "gods"?

^^^^^
Ignore

To all seriously considering a flash tuner, expect maybe at best a gain of 15 peak HP, or more likely a gain of around 10 peak HP, with some gain in the mid rpm ranges as well regardless of which brand you go with. Contrary to marketing hype, a ECU code and list of mods sent to a dealer does not a true custom tune make, and any tune that comes to you pre-loaded is going to be the manufacturer's best attempt at getting a little more performance out of a range of vehicles. Tweaking that tune or your factory tune based on dyno runs and datalogging will get you some more HP, and eqaully important will insure that it is safe HP with respect to A/F ratio. Should that tweaking be done with the handheld itself? It can be, but be aware of the significant limitations in doing so. Is a tuner worth it? Yes in my opinion, especially in light of the many other functions it can perform, and remember that brand is not important so much as the quality of the tune loaded into it.

All Im gonna say ( don't wanna start nothing)

BlackFang knows what he is talking about.....

Fortunately he's not the only one

My 2c.

I bought a used XCal2 and was not aware of SCT's business setup. This is not a bash or anything negative about SCT, but a buyer be aware. If you buy a new one, you are good to go. But since the one I bought was for a different car, the tunes were of no use. If I want a tune, I have to pay for one, unless I can find a willing person with a base GT tune that can send me a tune file. If I want to make simple changes such as traction control or tire size changes, I am SOL. So I can use it to read codes and datalog, but to make changes or tune I have to spend more money. I thought it was flashed with a generic base tune and that if purchased of a dealer, extra tweaked tunes would be loaded onto it.

So for everyone's knowledge, is the Predator setup this way, as in a generic ODBII device that is setup by the dealer or does it come with generic tunes and things u can change so even if it exchanges hands (unlocked of course) changes can be made?

Any first hand knowledge/experience with the Sniper lineup?