Engine setting up stud mount rocker arms
- Thread starter rockyracoon
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08GT500
5 Year Member
Hi, Sorry to hear your having an issue. More than happy to help, can you please provide a little more info.? .
-If they’re Hydraulic, Roller or Flat Tappet makes no difference, very slight movement side to side is normal with Rocker unloaded on Base circle of Cam..
Rocker Geometry is easily checked using a solid Lifter & straightedge & striking a Black or yellow line across the center Trunnion to the center of the Roller or contact tip, on the right side of #1 Cylinder’s Intake Valve. At 50% if advertised lift, the line on the Rocker should be level with the Valve over mating surface.Mark the Valve Stem with non permanent marker, the Rocker tip should leave behind a mark, should be no wider than 0.080 wide, and be in the middle of the Valve Stem. If it’s not, Pushrods are of incorrect length. I’m uncertain if the Motors in or out of the Car, and you’re just mocking this up to figure out Pushrod length...
What’s the answer to the above, and:
1) New aftermarket Heads that had Screw in Studs, or Ford Heads like GT-40’s, converted?
2) Are you running Guideplates & Hardened Pushrods?
3) All Rockers exhibit this same play when on Base circle?
4) Did you set lash correctly? Lifter on.base circle, thread Rocker down so Rocker tip just makes contact with Valve stem (no play), then tightening Rocker adjuster Nut an additional 1/2-3/4 turn & locking set Screw (or leaving it if a Poly-type nut).
5) Is this a “Kit” you bought with all valvetrain components included?
Thanks, just saw your text while Typing..
John
-If they’re Hydraulic, Roller or Flat Tappet makes no difference, very slight movement side to side is normal with Rocker unloaded on Base circle of Cam..
Rocker Geometry is easily checked using a solid Lifter & straightedge & striking a Black or yellow line across the center Trunnion to the center of the Roller or contact tip, on the right side of #1 Cylinder’s Intake Valve. At 50% if advertised lift, the line on the Rocker should be level with the Valve over mating surface.Mark the Valve Stem with non permanent marker, the Rocker tip should leave behind a mark, should be no wider than 0.080 wide, and be in the middle of the Valve Stem. If it’s not, Pushrods are of incorrect length. I’m uncertain if the Motors in or out of the Car, and you’re just mocking this up to figure out Pushrod length...
What’s the answer to the above, and:
1) New aftermarket Heads that had Screw in Studs, or Ford Heads like GT-40’s, converted?
2) Are you running Guideplates & Hardened Pushrods?
3) All Rockers exhibit this same play when on Base circle?
4) Did you set lash correctly? Lifter on.base circle, thread Rocker down so Rocker tip just makes contact with Valve stem (no play), then tightening Rocker adjuster Nut an additional 1/2-3/4 turn & locking set Screw (or leaving it if a Poly-type nut).
5) Is this a “Kit” you bought with all valvetrain components included?
Thanks, just saw your text while Typing..
John
john I did use checking springs, however I did not use a solid lifter. Do you think that's where I went wrong ? it appears that the push-rods are too short as there appears to be way too much play when the lifters are on the base circle. I did have contact in the middle of the valve tip with the mark within specs.
08GT500
5 Year Member
Hi, It sounds like your Pushrod length may be on the low side. I just typed that when your text came in, lol! Yes, sounds like you’re a bit shy. Checking Springs are light, but can cave a Hydraulic lifter- yes. You need to run a Solid lifter on whatever you’re checking. I’d just installed AFR Heads, Screw in Studs, 6.700. TrickFlow’s, 6.700, Brodix, 6.500. What Heads are you running?
- John
- John
08GT500
5 Year Member
Must remind you that Gasket thickness, Block being decked, Heads flycut, etc., can affect pushrod lengths.. One that works on one Motor may not always be right for another, even non- modified.
The length you’re running is near what Pedestal mount Rockers run, I’ve not seen any Aftermarket Heads with Screw in Studs below 6.500, and that was Decked & Heads flycut, the Brodix Heads i’d Installed a week ago.
-John
The length you’re running is near what Pedestal mount Rockers run, I’ve not seen any Aftermarket Heads with Screw in Studs below 6.500, and that was Decked & Heads flycut, the Brodix Heads i’d Installed a week ago.
-John
Heads are called pro comp from ebay. they seem to have sold a ton of them. however when I asked the seller he said they were his castings.
08GT500
5 Year Member
Hi, Rocky, I’ve heard of them, don’t know much about those Heads. If you can post a few pics of the Motor, viewed from top showing Rocker height on the Intake Valve when closed (Cam on Base circle), and another from the Front of the Block, same Rocker position, I’ll be able to tell a lot from that..
I’d also read and apply what I’d typed above regarding very basic Valvetrain Geometry to get you in the Ballpark. I’ll look for pics or a response, if you don’t understand something, please feel free to ask. K?
Good luck- John
I’d also read and apply what I’d typed above regarding very basic Valvetrain Geometry to get you in the Ballpark. I’ll look for pics or a response, if you don’t understand something, please feel free to ask. K?
Good luck- John
08GT500
5 Year Member
Hi, Here’s a decent link that is laid out well & may be a strong reference. If you don’t have a Solid lifter, take an old one, pull it apart & fill with flatwashers, Braze it, or pop off the clip & Pushrod piston & spray it out with a spray Solvent, pump it full of epoxy, replace the Pushrod cup & verify there’s enough room to reinstall the Circlip, install that once the epoxy cures..
https://www.lunatipower.com/how-to-verify-valvetrain-geometry
Best of luck!
- John. If it’s
https://www.lunatipower.com/how-to-verify-valvetrain-geometry
Best of luck!
- John. If it’s
08GT500
5 Year Member
Rocky, One last thing. Whenever I get a set of Heads to put on a Customer’s Car- Brand new or used & “reconditioned” alike, I ALWAYS send them to a friends Automotive specific Engine Rebuilding Shop to verify they’re squared up, pull all the Springs to verify their PSI Spec’s are the same, ensure they run the Spring Cups under the Springs (As without they’ll eat into the Spacer(s) if installed & into the Heads). Check Guides, Check Valves & Seats & grinds, install Viton Seals, Pressure test, etc.
If on a strict budget, I recommend they at least, pressure test them.
As even well known Companies have assembly lines, many mistakes may occur.
Try this:
If you prop them up so the Chambers are up & level, add H20 to each chamber & see if any H20 leaks out, water molecules are larger than air molecules, i.e.; If Water leaks, they’re guaranteed to leak compressed air.
Last thing you need is to find a Compression leak due to a Calve/seat issue & have to pull a Head once you’re done.
I’ve come across some awful mistakes from brand new Heads, one set the Seats were Cracked, another had almost no Valve margin in their Grind- Valve edges would have melted with its first hard run, etc..
Shyster a friendly FYI. Trust NOTHING.
Good luck- John
If on a strict budget, I recommend they at least, pressure test them.
As even well known Companies have assembly lines, many mistakes may occur.
Try this:
If you prop them up so the Chambers are up & level, add H20 to each chamber & see if any H20 leaks out, water molecules are larger than air molecules, i.e.; If Water leaks, they’re guaranteed to leak compressed air.
Last thing you need is to find a Compression leak due to a Calve/seat issue & have to pull a Head once you’re done.
I’ve come across some awful mistakes from brand new Heads, one set the Seats were Cracked, another had almost no Valve margin in their Grind- Valve edges would have melted with its first hard run, etc..
Shyster a friendly FYI. Trust NOTHING.
Good luck- John
08GT500
5 Year Member
Hi, Did a little research on those Heads, 5.0’s averaged around 6.5-6.700” Pushrod length, between Decked/Flycut Heads & Stock 86’-93’s. What Intake cc’s are you running, btw?
It’s fine the Heads are Torqued down, nothing you can’t do with them on, lower removed. Can still remove Lifters, if need be.
-John
It’s fine the Heads are Torqued down, nothing you can’t do with them on, lower removed. Can still remove Lifters, if need be.
-John
08GT500
5 Year Member
So, you did a Compression test? What did you end up with for Cylinder PSI & differences between? Didn’t mean to spook you with getting Heads checked out prior to Install, it’s a personal preference that has proven to be helpful for me. Just keep in mind down the road.
The Castings on these Heads seem good, it’s normally the Valvetrain components that people have had issues with. Reviews read are a few years back, many I could see the people were incorrect regarding comments & things may have improved. They are made in China, but that’s not always bad, may be to keep costs down. Is it running Cups on the base of the Valve Springs? That’s an important one.
Can you precisely align the Rocker tips with both Valve Stems with Pushrods installed using the 1 PC Guideplates the Heads came with?
ISKY & a few other Mfg’s make independent Guideplates (one per Valve) for aligning Stem to Rocker’s lateral movement. They interlock & slide together for improved adjustments requiring greater control than a Single Guide-plate can accommodate.
Rocker Studs clamp them in place, same as single Guideplates, but allow independent Valve/Stem “tweaking” that single Plates cannot achieve.Cost is 25-40$.
They are often Welded together once adjusted, but it’s not mandatory..
Are you planning on Degreeing the Cam in? I’d Retarded the last TFS-1 Cam for a better midrange-Top end, it didn’t affect low RPM response much, Cam’s specs, events were right on. I ran a TFS2 Cam & Advanced it 2 Degrees, was a Customers DD, Car ran great.
Valve to Piston clearance was close with the 11R Heads (Basically a CNC ported TF T.Wedge 170cc Head), but shares the larger Valves yours have. Piston reliefs on 87’-93’ stock Forged Pistons are of no help,
Stage 1 vs. 2 difference was 23 RWHP, both Dyno’d, in comparison with near identical 331’s.. BOTH Stage 1 & 2 are GREAT Cams, Stage 2 is a bit lazy below 2,500- comes on hard @ 3K to 6,500, both will keep on pulling beyond, if you’re running 5/16”
OE Rod Bolts, I wouldn’t spin beyond 6,500 repeatedly for longevity. Looks like a 300RWHP build, APPROX , providing you port the Explorer lower & do the typical 70mm TB, 76mm MAF, LT’’s, Cobra upper, 24lb injectors, etc with a good Dynotune. Have lower Gears?
Do you have a 9 position lower Cam Gear?
Good luck! John
The Castings on these Heads seem good, it’s normally the Valvetrain components that people have had issues with. Reviews read are a few years back, many I could see the people were incorrect regarding comments & things may have improved. They are made in China, but that’s not always bad, may be to keep costs down. Is it running Cups on the base of the Valve Springs? That’s an important one.
Can you precisely align the Rocker tips with both Valve Stems with Pushrods installed using the 1 PC Guideplates the Heads came with?
ISKY & a few other Mfg’s make independent Guideplates (one per Valve) for aligning Stem to Rocker’s lateral movement. They interlock & slide together for improved adjustments requiring greater control than a Single Guide-plate can accommodate.
Rocker Studs clamp them in place, same as single Guideplates, but allow independent Valve/Stem “tweaking” that single Plates cannot achieve.Cost is 25-40$.
They are often Welded together once adjusted, but it’s not mandatory..
Are you planning on Degreeing the Cam in? I’d Retarded the last TFS-1 Cam for a better midrange-Top end, it didn’t affect low RPM response much, Cam’s specs, events were right on. I ran a TFS2 Cam & Advanced it 2 Degrees, was a Customers DD, Car ran great.
Valve to Piston clearance was close with the 11R Heads (Basically a CNC ported TF T.Wedge 170cc Head), but shares the larger Valves yours have. Piston reliefs on 87’-93’ stock Forged Pistons are of no help,
Stage 1 vs. 2 difference was 23 RWHP, both Dyno’d, in comparison with near identical 331’s.. BOTH Stage 1 & 2 are GREAT Cams, Stage 2 is a bit lazy below 2,500- comes on hard @ 3K to 6,500, both will keep on pulling beyond, if you’re running 5/16”
OE Rod Bolts, I wouldn’t spin beyond 6,500 repeatedly for longevity. Looks like a 300RWHP build, APPROX , providing you port the Explorer lower & do the typical 70mm TB, 76mm MAF, LT’’s, Cobra upper, 24lb injectors, etc with a good Dynotune. Have lower Gears?
Do you have a 9 position lower Cam Gear?
Good luck! John
Go here:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5is9BsH5OU
Its a vid by Straub Technologies and its been the best rocker pushrod info I have seen in months.
Been trying to finalize my new 302 pushrods for a couple weeks. lHave Comp roller rockers on AFR185 stud/guideplate heads with a Comp hydraulic roller in a 97 block. The guidance varies widely, some being almost dead wrong. Very annoying. I sketched the rocker, pushrod valve setup and did some common sense checks. The above video starts you at half lift and the rocker 90 deg to the valve stem, and go from there.
For my flat tappet engines I bought some solid lifters to check with. For this one, I took the spring and the locator part out of a stock Ford hydraulic roller and ground a pc of 1/4 dia bolt the right length to fit in its place. Retainer fit and no visible movement, so I used it. That and a checking spring got me the solution. It appears I will use a 6.55 or 6.6 in hardened ball end pushrod from Comp. The Straub video and the Later Model Restoration video gave identical results. The Straub one tells you exactly what your are trying to do.
Gonna call Comp and verify tomorrow.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5is9BsH5OU
Its a vid by Straub Technologies and its been the best rocker pushrod info I have seen in months.
Been trying to finalize my new 302 pushrods for a couple weeks. lHave Comp roller rockers on AFR185 stud/guideplate heads with a Comp hydraulic roller in a 97 block. The guidance varies widely, some being almost dead wrong. Very annoying. I sketched the rocker, pushrod valve setup and did some common sense checks. The above video starts you at half lift and the rocker 90 deg to the valve stem, and go from there.
For my flat tappet engines I bought some solid lifters to check with. For this one, I took the spring and the locator part out of a stock Ford hydraulic roller and ground a pc of 1/4 dia bolt the right length to fit in its place. Retainer fit and no visible movement, so I used it. That and a checking spring got me the solution. It appears I will use a 6.55 or 6.6 in hardened ball end pushrod from Comp. The Straub video and the Later Model Restoration video gave identical results. The Straub one tells you exactly what your are trying to do.
Gonna call Comp and verify tomorrow.
John,
I ran a length checker again with a solid lifter and checking springs and the mark is in the center of the valve stem with an allowable sweep pattern. Still coming out 6.350. please advise. but as stated the rocker arms still are pretty loose when on the base circles. I guess I will just go with the 6.350 push rods and see what happens. I tried 6.500 and the mark was too far towards the exhaust side. going to use the straub video and see what I come up wih. also my cam card gives a slightly different gross lift between intake and exhaust valves 0.499 and 0.510 so im going to split the difference. 0.505 my 7/16 studs give me 0.50 TPI
Last edited:
08GT500
5 Year Member
Hi Rocky, Sorry to hear you’re having troubles..On 1 of our earlier text(s) you’d mentioned your running a 97’ Explorer Block? Just wanted to confirm...
I’d been in contact with some regarding these Heads, most down bottom...
Was typing when I saw your amendment to your first post. My apologies..Just got out of the Shop at 7:45, buried.
I’ll keep popping back online to check your responses..
1) Don’t concern yourself with the Pushrods others used, only what works right in your Build. 2 identical builds, what works for one, may not for another...
2) By Design, Screw in Studs are much more forgiving regarding Pushrod length, as long as you have your symmetrical “sweep” reasonably equal across the Valve Stem Centerline (I prefer </= 0.075 Max., or 0.0375 off C/L on each side).
3) If there’s No Rocker interference-anywhere, Pushrods are not striking Head, Guideplates properly align Rocker Tip to Valve Stem is left to right, Go with the 6.35’s.
I can’t detect an error, but a pic or 2 would really help.
Can you post a pic of the Motor at Lift & on Base circle, would like to see Rocker Angle & height, if possible.
3) Studs torqued to Spec’s, Guideplates checked, hole depth & bottom Tapped threads installed, adjusted lash with slight Pushrod resistance + 1/3 turn extra on the adjusters, you’re good to go...
I’m assuming you’re running Set Screw locking Stud Nuts, not Polylocks-correct?
Chase the Threads w/a bottoming Tap that are going into the Heads/verify the depth with Calipers, or mark a Nail, etc..ensure those Studs are not bottoming out before they grab the Guideplates.
As they’re not Helicoiled, you need 0.625 Thread Depth, preferably, as your Springs are 125lbs Seated, 300-330lbs@ 0.50 lift. It running Black Viton Seals?
I’d read reviews, emailed the seller on EBay, saw an early set apart at my Buddy’s Shop, other Forums, etc, re: these Heads, did find more than one one person running a 6.350” Pushrod, so- you’re not alone, there.
There were 3 different SBF Casting revisions from what I got from Pro-C on EBAY(4 Total). The first wave was made, Sand Castings, core Pins, Machining them where they’d wanted to afterwards.
That’s the ONLY answer I got when I’d asked about Pushrod lengths varying near an Inch, previously- experimenting with longer & shorter Valves, Spring pockets, installed Heights, etc. Then, Contracted out to China.
I didn’t yet read it, there’s a SBF/SBC Aftermarket Head comparison by a few good sources talking these.
Also worth noting- seems most with Procomp’s are going with ARP Studs, Stud Nuts, aftermarket adjustable Guideplates. If you haven’t, take a close look at your hardware, just in case. Can’t hurt. If you have 316ss Valves, you have one of the 2 newest Head revisions-(If Magnetic, it’s 400 Series, 316 is non-Magnetic Stainless).
Few Folks were required opened up the Head’s Pushrod holes as the Pushrod were striking the Heads before the Guideplates could correct the Rocker tip to Valve Stem alignment (Left to Right).
Found a few “tunnelvisioned” guys -attempting to allocate pushrod length running Rockers with radius up, Flat on Rocker Trunnion facing down, Tunnelvisioned & racing to complete. Walk on Eggshells, & ask questions now.. Race later! lol.
I wasn’t certain regarding your last comment regarding Valve lift. Is advertised 0.490/0.510 lift off measuring with an indicator at the Valve Retainer(s)?
Ok, i’ll Talk to you soon!
John
P.S. Few Pic’s below..
(L) Individual Guideplates, best when individual lateral Rocker tip/Valve Stem clearance doesn’t remain constant. May want to verify the openings on yours are made to fit 5/16”, not 3/8” Pushrod clearances, that may explain excess Rocker movement @ Base circle.
I’d been in contact with some regarding these Heads, most down bottom...
Was typing when I saw your amendment to your first post. My apologies..Just got out of the Shop at 7:45, buried.
I’ll keep popping back online to check your responses..
1) Don’t concern yourself with the Pushrods others used, only what works right in your Build. 2 identical builds, what works for one, may not for another...
2) By Design, Screw in Studs are much more forgiving regarding Pushrod length, as long as you have your symmetrical “sweep” reasonably equal across the Valve Stem Centerline (I prefer </= 0.075 Max., or 0.0375 off C/L on each side).
3) If there’s No Rocker interference-anywhere, Pushrods are not striking Head, Guideplates properly align Rocker Tip to Valve Stem is left to right, Go with the 6.35’s.
I can’t detect an error, but a pic or 2 would really help.
Can you post a pic of the Motor at Lift & on Base circle, would like to see Rocker Angle & height, if possible.
3) Studs torqued to Spec’s, Guideplates checked, hole depth & bottom Tapped threads installed, adjusted lash with slight Pushrod resistance + 1/3 turn extra on the adjusters, you’re good to go...
I’m assuming you’re running Set Screw locking Stud Nuts, not Polylocks-correct?
Chase the Threads w/a bottoming Tap that are going into the Heads/verify the depth with Calipers, or mark a Nail, etc..ensure those Studs are not bottoming out before they grab the Guideplates.
As they’re not Helicoiled, you need 0.625 Thread Depth, preferably, as your Springs are 125lbs Seated, 300-330lbs@ 0.50 lift. It running Black Viton Seals?
I’d read reviews, emailed the seller on EBay, saw an early set apart at my Buddy’s Shop, other Forums, etc, re: these Heads, did find more than one one person running a 6.350” Pushrod, so- you’re not alone, there.
There were 3 different SBF Casting revisions from what I got from Pro-C on EBAY(4 Total). The first wave was made, Sand Castings, core Pins, Machining them where they’d wanted to afterwards.
That’s the ONLY answer I got when I’d asked about Pushrod lengths varying near an Inch, previously- experimenting with longer & shorter Valves, Spring pockets, installed Heights, etc. Then, Contracted out to China.
I didn’t yet read it, there’s a SBF/SBC Aftermarket Head comparison by a few good sources talking these.
Also worth noting- seems most with Procomp’s are going with ARP Studs, Stud Nuts, aftermarket adjustable Guideplates. If you haven’t, take a close look at your hardware, just in case. Can’t hurt. If you have 316ss Valves, you have one of the 2 newest Head revisions-(If Magnetic, it’s 400 Series, 316 is non-Magnetic Stainless).
Few Folks were required opened up the Head’s Pushrod holes as the Pushrod were striking the Heads before the Guideplates could correct the Rocker tip to Valve Stem alignment (Left to Right).
Found a few “tunnelvisioned” guys -attempting to allocate pushrod length running Rockers with radius up, Flat on Rocker Trunnion facing down, Tunnelvisioned & racing to complete. Walk on Eggshells, & ask questions now.. Race later! lol.
I wasn’t certain regarding your last comment regarding Valve lift. Is advertised 0.490/0.510 lift off measuring with an indicator at the Valve Retainer(s)?
Ok, i’ll Talk to you soon!
John
P.S. Few Pic’s below..
(L) Individual Guideplates, best when individual lateral Rocker tip/Valve Stem clearance doesn’t remain constant. May want to verify the openings on yours are made to fit 5/16”, not 3/8” Pushrod clearances, that may explain excess Rocker movement @ Base circle.
