Should I buy a brand new a/c system?

[dec322]

I had my system converted to R134 two months ago. After a month of nice cold air one of the liquid lines busted loose. I had it put back together (and paid another $180 ) and started asking why it happened and why I had to pay. The mechanic told me that the hose broke free b/c it was too close to the headers. He blamed this on the previous owner (the guy had pulled the engine and rebuilt it) because (according to the mechanic) all the brackets are gone. He then told me that it was going to nickel and dime me to death and that he knew it when he converted the system (I'm already upset b/c he should have told me that $360 before). Now it doesn't even blow nearly as cold as it did before the liquid line busted. He recommends replacing the whole system but I'll never take another vehicle there again.

Anyways, here are my questions:
1. Is it really necessary to replace everything?
2. If I did want to replace everything that would be beneficial, what should I replace?
3. Can I replace everything and then just pay someone to charge it?

 

[backfocus]

Unless the compressor has been moved from it original location, I can't think of any reason that a line would be close enough to a header to cause damage. Which line exactly broke? If it was to low side which is the big rubber hose that runs from the dryer to the compressor it should run by the firewall then over or around the upper intake. No other hose should be even close to a header, maybe a high side line, but those are hard lines.

You said that the brackets are gone, I would go junkyard hunting for the brackets if they are missing. It should cool, just fine the it was fixed correctly, you don't need a new system from what you have said so far. But it also sounds as if the guy working on the car didn't care, and did a crappy job, so no telling if it was converted correctly or not. More info is needed the know if it was converted right and if it was vacuumed down and charged correctly.

If it wasn't done correctly a new system could be in the works, as the old oil and new don't like each other. You could replace all the stuff yourself and have someone evacuate and charge the system, but I would check around because many shops, at least around here, won't guarantee the work, because they didn't install it.

 

[corvetteguy]

I
See no advantage of replacing the
entire AC system on an 88 car.
You may be lucky and replace the one
part that may be leaking but you can
find that out without the change.

If the guy did his job right he would have pulled
a vacuum for a few hours. Maybe he didn't and
the pressure in the system was too high.

 

[dec322]

View attachment 367748


Here is a pic of when it came off. This is on the passenger side of the firewall.

The weird thing is that it cooled fine/better after the conversion than it does right now. I think that they probably didn't recharge it enough after reconnecting that line.

 

[jrichker]

You are pointing to the high pressure liquid line that comes from the condenser. That line carries high pressure (200-350 PSI) hot liquid refrigerant and on some Mustangs, has the expansion valve.

If the gas leaks out, usually it is because one of the O ring seals is bad. High quality R134 conversion is supposed to include new green O rings for all the joints and couplings. Did the failed connection have a green O ring (R134 compatible) or a black O ring (R12 only)? If it was a black O ring, the original O rings were probably not replaced. That is a sign of poor workmanship.

Since you are not familiar with how A/C works, here some background theory:

The condenser is up front of the radiator, and it is supposed to condense the hot gas from the compressor into a hot liquid. The hot liquid goes to the expansion valve located in the tubing next to the firewall. The expansion valve lets the hot liquid expand and become a cold gas, the cold gas goes to the evaporator inside the car where the fan blows on the evaporator exterior. The heat transfer from the air inside the car to the cold gas inside the evaporator causes the A/C to blow cold air. The now cool gas goes to the compressor where it gets compressed again into a hot gas and the process starts all over again. Keep in mind that this is a closed system, and the gas inside the A/C doesn't get out unless there is a leak, which is where you are at.

When a R134 conversion is done, the installer is supposed to replace the service fittings with R134 style quick connector couplings.

Typical low pressure side R134 coupling

Typical high pressure side R134 coupling

Then he places a R134 conversion sticker on the car. The typical sticker looks like this, yours may be different.

They are also supposed to replace all the O rings with green R134 compatible O rings. The R134 gas molecule is smaller than the R12 molecule, so R12 O rings will be prone to leakage.

See http://bellsouthpwp.net/l/r/lrichker/Mustang_tech/R134a_conversion/r134a_conversion.htm for R134a Conversion & recharge help

 

[dec322]

jrickter,

They did not replace the o-rings. I asked about it and they said "there are too many of them. There is no need." I called around (after the hose broke free) and asked other mechanics if they replaced the o-rings when they converted the system and only one said "yes". The price difference was $180 (old o-rings) to $250 (new o-rings). I had just assumed the o-rings would be changed....shame on me.

I'll check your site out sometime tomorrow. I know the liquid inside is green and I can't see any kind of leak right now. Ever since they reconnected the line and recharged the system, its been weak. I already know these guys are going to blame an old system (that why I'll never use them again), but I think they didn't put enough back in.


On a side note: Today I fixed both of my door lock actuators using your method. I've owned the car for about 1 1/2 years and have never locked the doors via the button/switch until today. The shop quoted me $150 for labor alone. I spent $20. Thanks!!

 

[jrichker]

If I can do it it in my carport, they can do it in the shop. There are 4 O rings on the compressor, 2 O rings on the tubing that comes from the condenser, 2 O rings on the evaporator where it comes out of the firewall. That's 8 O rings at a cost of $12 max. It takes roughly 10 minutes to replace each O ring. That's 80 minutes, and at a $1 a minute, it is $80. Add another 20 minutes for fudge factor and you have 100 minutes and $100 for them to do it.

 

[backfocus]

As jrichker stated those o-rings should have been replaced. $250 for a conversion is not a bad price, especially for around here. The green liquid in the line just means they put a dye charge in the system which will help later down the road to know where it is leaking. It does however sound like they didn't charge it correctly or didn't even vacuum the system down after the second repair, maybe both.

Take it to the shop that changes the o-rings and have him convert it correctly. Since you have a charge in the system it should cost a little less because of less refrigerant to buy. Most shops should credit you back what they take out, but it is up to the shop. Or go back and demand that the first shop does it correctly.

Good luck

 

[dec322]

$250 for a conversion is not a bad price, especially for around here.


Or go back and demand that the first shop does it correctly.

I would have paid $250 but I didn't even contact that mechanic till it was all said and done. I originally thought o-rings would be replaced in the conversion. I'd have paid extra if I needed to.



On the demanding part. Some mechanics couldn't care less about someone's demands. This is a mechanic shop owned by a dad and run by a son. They think: whatever.

Oh well, live and learn....I'll never use them again.

 

[backfocus]

On the demanding part. Some mechanics couldn't care less about someone's demands. This is a mechanic shop owned by a dad and run by a son. They think: whatever.

Oh well, live and learn....I'll never use them again.

I hate that for you, but what many people don't realize that there are many agencies, paid for by you the consumer, that deal with businesses like this. Such as your local Better Business Bureau, which is paid for by local and state taxes. If it is a auto shop, they might be ASE certified, or with AC work, have an EPA certification. Both of these have places to contact and complain, especially the EPA I have know of a few shops that were shut down or fined because of not following guidelines.

So if you wish to, you may not get your money back, but you can report them and maybe they get fined. Because they have gotten away with it in the past is why they currently have an "I don't care" attitude, it just takes someone to stand up and say something. You as a consumer have rights, you just have to know how to employ them.

Secondly, always ask around for shop references and read up on the job yourself, before you have something done. It always helps to be informed so you don't get ripped of.