Spindle help!!

my 2 cents is that if you are going to be driving the car you should seriously consider replacing the spindles with the beefier 70-73 mustang (or granada) spindles.

_both_ of the original disc brake spindles on my 68 daily driver (not raced) broke over a 2 year period. The second one went while I was on the highway! Ford apparently had good reason to increase the diameter of the spindle...

I believe the new 70-73 disc spindles that are being offered by various vendors are all from the same manufacturer -- MBM ( www.mbmbrakeboosters.com ). These are the spindles I am using now. I think, but am not 100% sure, they are the same ones being offered by TCP. EDIT: See my follow-up post below -- I now think it is probable the TCP spindles are NOT the MBM spindles.

Another company that sells new spindles is CSRP -- these match the Granada design. http://www.discbrakeswap.com/index.html

Another option would be used 70-73 mustang or granada spindles, I would have them magnafluxed.

68 disc brake setup can work with the 70-73 disc spindles if you swap the bearings/races in the rotors (or buy new 70 rotors/bearings). You also need new spindle nut/washers and 70 mustang tie rod ends.

Chris

degins (discbrakeswap.com) also has 68-73 caliper brackets for the granada spindles as well, this will allow you to use the granada spindle with 68-73 calipers instead of the granada calipers. really the only difference between the 68-73 spindle design and the granada spindle design, besides the larger spindle pin and tie-rod taper like the 70-up spindle, is the bolts for mounting the caliper bracket to the spindle are larger. so you could get the spindles and 68-73 caliper bracket from degins if you have the single piston caliper disc system.

pretty sure the TCP spindles are made by TCP

bnickel said:

pretty sure the TCP spindles are made by TCP

Click to expand...

I have reason to doubt that.

bnickel said:

pretty sure the TCP spindles are made by TCP

Click to expand...

Looking closely at the pictures of the spindles in the TCP catalog I can see some minor differences in casting/machining compared to the MBM spindles. Also I do not see "MBM" cast into the TCP spindles. Also it seems like TCP does not supply the caliper brackets or spindle nut kit (spindle nut kits are an extra $25 from TCP). Based on the differences it does seem probable that the TCP spindles are sourced from another source besides MBM (contradicting what another source told me...). I doubt that TCP owns the actual equipment used to forge/machine these parts -- seems like it would too expensive.

The MBM spindles come with new caliper brackets.

The spindles sold be CJ Pony parts are the MBM spindles (part number BSP1). You can see "MBM" in the casting of the caliper brackets. "MBM" is also cast into the backside of the spindle (not visible in CJ pony parts picture).
http://mustang-parts.cjponyparts.com/search?w=bsp1

Note: the MBM spindles from CJ Pony parts are $239 and include caliper brackets. The TCP spindles are $359 and that does not include caliper brackets. The TCP parts are powder coated which is nice.

The MBM spindles I purchased came with spindle nuts but I did not like the design, so I did not use them and instead purchased new spindle nut kits. The included spindle nuts were one piece castle nuts, not the two piece stock design where there is a nut and a "castled hat" that sits on top. The problem with the one piece design is that you cannot fine tune the tightness of the nut as much, because there are few positions that allow the cotter pin to be installed.

MBM seems like they are an established company and have several other spindles in their catalog, so it seems likely they probably make a reasonable quality part. To my untrained eye they look like quality parts, and they installed without any problem on my car.


Anyone have any idea how one might realistically compare/judge the quality (strength) of spindles from different sources? My guess is that without knowing specific details about the steel used and forging process and destructive/expensive testing there is no easy way to know. My (again uneducated guess) is that since the original mustang spindles were manufactured 40 years ago the technology for making these parts has probably only improved, so there is a good chance that these parts would be (at least) as strong as the originals. Then again they may be made in china out of recycled lead toys.


Maybe a bit off topic, but while posting more than anybody every wanted to know about these spindles... A few things I learned while installing these 70-73 style spindles on my 68...

1) 70 mustang vs. granada tie rod ends: The taper for the outer tie rod end is the same for a 70 mustang as for the granada spindle. I took a look at both Granada and 70 mustang tie rods, and they are very similar but the granada parts looked a little beefier... so I was going to go with the granada tie rod ends -- but the problem is that the hole for the cotter pin is drilled in a slightly different position on the granada tie rod ends, and you cannot get the cotter pin on (the hole ends up partially under the nut) -- I decided I did want a cotter pin, so I went back to the 70 tie rod ends. And my guess is that is why there are different tie-rods part numbers for 70-73 mustangs and granadas. I see some granada disc swap instructions one the web that indicate you can use 70 mustang tie rod ends, but I think you would be better off using granada tie rod ends so the cotter pin will fit right.

2) mustang vs. granada spindle nut kits: These are also not the same for granada and 70-73 mustang spindles. The nut is the same but the "castled hat" -- the stamped piece that has the slots for the cotter pin is different. This is because on a granada spindle the tip of the spindle (beyond the threads) has a smaller diameter.

So that is two other minor differences between 70-73 mustang disc spindles and the granada spindles.

Chris

I'm curious about the broken spindles. It seems beyond the laws of probability that you broke two spindles in two years of normal street driving. I mean they made several million of these parts and they've been in use for ~40 years which has to account for billions of miles. SOMETHING had to have been exerting undue force on them with your car in my mind, one could break due to "bad luck", but two?

I have a set of 72 spindles in my pile-o-parts that I am planning on using down the road someday, might want to bump that project up the priority list.

Edbert said:

I'm curious about the broken spindles. It seems beyond the laws of probability that you broke two spindles in two years of normal street driving. I mean they made several million of these parts and they've been in use for ~40 years which has to account for billions of miles. SOMETHING had to have been exerting undue force on them with your car in my mind, one could break due to "bad luck", but two?

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I also thought that the early small pin spindles couldn't be that bad with so many Mustangs driving around with them, but when using my original drum spindles for a mock up of a new brake system, it turned out that the pins were bent. They pointed downwards, so the caliper didn't sit square on the rotor. I thought that there was something wrong with the calipers or the brackets, but later I discovered that the problem was the bent spindle pins. I would have expected that the weight of the vehicle would have bend them upwards, but then figured that cornering forces have a lot more leverage (half the wheel size= ~12.5") which probably caused them to bend downwards. Or maybe the PO just hit a kerb once, but then he/she must have done that twice, because both spindles were bent, by about the same amount.

A friend told me that he once saw the results of a heavy crash and although the spindles were severly bent, they didn't break. I don't think that the early spindles are an accident waiting to happen, but their strength is a bit marginal.

chris82369 said:

...

Maybe a bit off topic, but while posting more than anybody every wanted to know about these spindles... A few things I learned while installing these 70-73 style spindles on my 68...

1) 70 mustang vs. granada tie rod ends: The taper for the outer tie rod end is the same for a 70 mustang as for the granada spindle. I took a look at both Granada and 70 mustang tie rods, and they are very similar but the granada parts looked a little beefier... so I was going to go with the granada tie rod ends -- but the problem is that the hole for the cotter pin is drilled in a slightly different position on the granada tie rod ends, and you cannot get the cotter pin on (the hole ends up partially under the nut) -- I decided I did want a cotter pin, so I went back to the 70 tie rod ends. And my guess is that is why there are different tie-rods part numbers for 70-73 mustangs and granadas. I see some granada disc swap instructions one the web that indicate you can use 70 mustang tie rod ends, but I think you would be better off using granada tie rod ends so the cotter pin will fit right.

2) mustang vs. granada spindle nut kits: These are also not the same for granada and 70-73 mustang spindles. The nut is the same but the "castled hat" -- the stamped piece that has the slots for the cotter pin is different. This is because on a granada spindle the tip of the spindle (beyond the threads) has a smaller diameter.

So that is two other minor differences between 70-73 mustang disc spindles and the granada spindles.

Chris

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1) The diameter of tapered stud on the 70-73 type is slightly smaller.

2) Both spindles use the same aftermarket nut retainer.

Again, I have reason to doubt the TCP manufactures the 68-69 Mustang spindle.

Helmantel said:

I also thought that the early small pin spindles couldn't be that bad with so many Mustangs driving around with them, but when using my original drum spindles for a mock up of a new brake system, it turned out that the pins were bent. They pointed downwards, so the caliper didn't sit square on the rotor. I thought that there was something wrong with the calipers or the brackets, but later I discovered that the problem was the bent spindle pins. I would have expected that the weight of the vehicle would have bend them upwards, but then figured that cornering forces have a lot more leverage (half the wheel size= ~12.5") which probably caused them to bend downwards. Or maybe the PO just hit a kerb once, but then he/she must have done that twice, because both spindles were bent, by about the same amount.

A friend told me that he once saw the results of a heavy crash and although the spindles were severly bent, they didn't break. I don't think that the early spindles are an accident waiting to happen, but their strength is a bit marginal.

Click to expand...

For whatever it's worth, I've driven the heck out of my '65 in open track and HDPEs over the last three years on stock '65 V8 spindles and haven't had a problem (~3,000lb car, had SSBC 11" front disks - now upgrading). There's no shortage of opinions about early Mustang spindles, but you're unlikely to find a set of '65 spindles that have been worked out harder with no hint of deformation or failure. My good friend Applejack on this board will disagree, as will others - just relating my experience.

Edbert said:

I'm curious about the broken spindles. It seems beyond the laws of probability that you broke two spindles in two years of normal street driving. I mean they made several million of these parts and they've been in use for ~40 years which has to account for billions of miles. SOMETHING had to have been exerting undue force on them with your car in my mind, one could break due to "bad luck", but two?

Click to expand...

I would agree with you if it did not actually happen to me. I do not think my car is completely unusual, but it is not 100% stock.

My car is a daily driver, I've owned it for about 15 years. I was not the original owner so I do not know what type of abuse it might have seen before. I probably have averaged under 100 miles a week on the car -- commuting to and from work. If my math is right that comes out to around 80,000 miles while I have owned it. The car was "well used" before I bought it, so maybe the spindles have 200,000 to 250,000 miles on them ?

My modifications to the front suspension are:
* Koni shocks (adjusted for moderate/mild rebound).
* 600 lb/in springs
* lowered about 1-2 inches.
* 235/60R14 tires -- on wider than stock steel wheels.
* 1 1/8" front sway bar
* porterfield r4-s brake pads
* "performance" alignment (slight negative camber, several degrees of caster)

I do not recall any major recent curb hits or anything near the failures, but the car is driven... I cannot say I never bumped into a curb while parking over the last 15 years. The "curb bump" theory would generally only apply to the passenger side spindle.

The passenger side one cracked about 75% through but did not actually break completely. The symptom was a metal-on-metal rubbing noise of the rotor against the caliper bracket when hitting dips at low speed (at high speed I suppose I could not hear it) -- at first I thought I was hearing things, but it got worse over a few day period to where I knew I was not crazy. I was surprised to find the spindle cracked when I took the wheel off to see what was going wrong. It cracked in the narrow section of the spindle just about where it starts to increase in diameter.

At the time I debated upgrading to the 70-73 or granada spindles, but the car is my daily driver and I wanted to get it back on the road quickly. And using the same logic as you above, I thought a cracked spindle must be a one in a million thing, so there was obviously no chance I would see another one break. Also it was the passenger side spindle which would get banged against curbs more often. So I found a used 68 spindle and replaced mine. I thought maybe I would upgrade the spindles in the future sometime when/if I ever upgraded my brakes/wheels.

Less than 2 years later while going about 45-50? miles an hour around a sweeping (and busy) highway interchange (not completely smooth but no major bumps) the other spindle broke suddenly. In this case the end of the spindle broke off completely and suddenly (my guess it was probably already cracked but was not flexing enough that I had noticed it yet). Luckily the wheel did not come completely off (disc caliper was holding it on) and I managed to get over to the side of the road before there was a pile-up. Scary. Not an experience I would like to repeat.

My guess is probably 40 years of use (and unknown abuse) combined with the wider wheels and high rate springs were all factors contributing to the failures. Probably combined with very bad luck on my part. I decided not to tempt fate again, and upgraded to new 70-73 style spindles.

I had one person email me and tell me that had a spindle break on their 68 mustang in 2005. The other references I have to broken spindles seems to be second-hand anecdotal type reports (such as various mustang magazine and web articles).

Chris

my 69 has the exact same spindles as your 68 and i can guarantee that my car has been driven harder and hit more stuff than yours and my spindles are perfectly fine. i've hit a curb at more than 30mph, i've hit huge dips, it's been jumped once and it was a pizza delivery vehicle forever, not too mention what ever may have happened to it before i got and i've had it since 1984. it sounds to me that what probably happened to your spindles was more about poor upkeep than hard driving. i'd be willing to bet that the at some point in the cars life the wheels bearings got dry which resulted in the spindles becoming "work hardened" possibly even had the bearing races weld themselves to the spindle pin at some point. that happened once to my old 70 cougar( shortly after i bought it), the passenger side wheel bearings failed from lack of lubrication and overheated the spindle pin, i drove it around like that for another couple of years with no ill effects but i can see where it could have caused a failure later on down the road. i'd seriously suspect that's what happened to your spindles at some point in the car's life and that is the cause of the broken spindles and not just normal wear and tear. it's extremely rare for a spindle to fail, epecially on it's own without some other problem being the actual cause.

I've seen six cylinder spindles shear off clean a couple of times, but I've never seen a V-8 spindle fail.

The Chinese make Granada type spindles too. I saw them in a boot at the SAE World Congress Exhibition a few years ago. I tried to ask the representative of the company something about it, but his knowledge of the English language was limited (his pronouncation at least), so I didn't get much information out of him.

FYI: Ford offered replacement spindles for the 65-66 Mustangs with updated pin dimensions. The Master catalog I have mentions something that they came with the appropriate bearings. So I guess they must have considered them a bit weak even then.

The TCP spindles I bought for the 66 are 70-73 disk brake spindles.
They have the 1/2"+ - holes in them to triangulate the caliper bracket, the only aftermarket 13" brakes I could find at the time were willwood.
and they have a different set of holes then the drum brake spindles (where the baking plate would mount).

Does anybody make replacement spindles for a 65 disc without converting to aftermarket/granada calipers

mustangman1974 said:

Does anybody make replacement spindles for a 65 disc without converting to aftermarket/granada calipers

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all 65-66 V8, all 67, and all 68-69 drum brake spindles are the same. the 65-67 disc brakes used an adapter to bolt the brake calipers to the spindles. in 68 ford went to a single piston caliper, and thus the disc brake spindles are different, though they use the same bearings as the others through 69. as stated in 1970 ford went to a larger spindle.

ahh so to get the beefier spindles you have to change disc brakes?