spining the vortech faster with alum.
- Thread starter stanggt00
- Start date
i go to much going on rigth now to get the shortblock and heads i want and i really wanted to get my car back on the road
so i opted for a brand new 4.6l stock motor to replace the old one
i still got 3k left in the bank to do more mod's or just save the 3k and add about 400 a month to that until next yr. for a mph long block
i also have all the parts for my diy fmic if i go with the 3.33 pulley will i need a retune
atm i am using the stock 3.60 pulley and tims tune witch by the way is very safe on the rich side
so i opted for a brand new 4.6l stock motor to replace the old one
i still got 3k left in the bank to do more mod's or just save the 3k and add about 400 a month to that until next yr. for a mph long block
i also have all the parts for my diy fmic if i go with the 3.33 pulley will i need a retune
atm i am using the stock 3.60 pulley and tims tune witch by the way is very safe on the rich side
hotmustang331
Active Member
As far as the boost thing, yea your about right about seeing 4PSI @ 3K. I was wrong there(after watching some vids) ...I have heard the stock pully sees around 1PSI @ 3500.
BUT thats still NOWHERE close to the 10PSI the KB would be seeing. SO what you were saying was still WOW over shot
As far as the engine....running 7000RPM is VERY VERY dangerous. You MAY get away with it if your lucky, but telling someone all he needs is the valvetrain to run 7K is crazy. You make it sound safe and my main thing is I DONT want someone seeing this and thinking "Oh all I need are cams, springs and the rest of the valvtrain accessories and I can run the RPM the 4Vs do!" . The 4Vs got upgraded internals to handle the RPM...stock 2V stuff isnt designed for that sortof RPM, and your incredibly lucky that it held togethor.
Its just like alot of 2V guys running around with 450RWHP+ and doing it for years...but I still wouldnt recommend it, or tell someone its fine to run say 468RWHP on the stock motor. Different engines can dake different amounts of punishment...and its MAINLY due to the tune, and thats something we definatly cant control.
7000 RPM and supercharged definatly takes a VERY safe tune...because like you said....little lean and its gone. It leaves WAY WAY less room for error when you push these motors that hard.
SOO you must understand that my main objective is to keep false or not totally true statements from being spread. (and thanks for your correcting about how much boost a centri sees at XXX RPM. Just going off what I had read. Ill have to look into that more before I take what you said as teh truth though) You would be suprised how people think...they see ONE post from someone thats been running his 2V to 8000RPM and had 650RWHP with 20PSI for 2 years and think anyone can do it. What they dont see is the precise tuning involved or that fact that most people that go something that extreme NEVER go WOT in their cars and the only time it seen boost was on the dyno for a few pulls. It may be possable to do...but safe/reliable it is not.
BUT thats still NOWHERE close to the 10PSI the KB would be seeing. SO what you were saying was still WOW over shot
As far as the engine....running 7000RPM is VERY VERY dangerous. You MAY get away with it if your lucky, but telling someone all he needs is the valvetrain to run 7K is crazy. You make it sound safe and my main thing is I DONT want someone seeing this and thinking "Oh all I need are cams, springs and the rest of the valvtrain accessories and I can run the RPM the 4Vs do!" . The 4Vs got upgraded internals to handle the RPM...stock 2V stuff isnt designed for that sortof RPM, and your incredibly lucky that it held togethor.
Its just like alot of 2V guys running around with 450RWHP+ and doing it for years...but I still wouldnt recommend it, or tell someone its fine to run say 468RWHP on the stock motor. Different engines can dake different amounts of punishment...and its MAINLY due to the tune, and thats something we definatly cant control.
7000 RPM and supercharged definatly takes a VERY safe tune...because like you said....little lean and its gone. It leaves WAY WAY less room for error when you push these motors that hard.
SOO you must understand that my main objective is to keep false or not totally true statements from being spread. (and thanks for your correcting about how much boost a centri sees at XXX RPM. Just going off what I had read. Ill have to look into that more before I take what you said as teh truth though) You would be suprised how people think...they see ONE post from someone thats been running his 2V to 8000RPM and had 650RWHP with 20PSI for 2 years and think anyone can do it. What they dont see is the precise tuning involved or that fact that most people that go something that extreme NEVER go WOT in their cars and the only time it seen boost was on the dyno for a few pulls. It may be possable to do...but safe/reliable it is not.
Rickey_Bobby
New Member
Holy poop! no wonder you started this post! Take that 3.60 pulley and chuck it at a honda NOW!
I SAID NOW!
Now log on to vortech's website and buy the 3.33". You WILL need a retune as you are pushing a lot more air.
Other things you should have....
when you upgrade to a FMIC, you absolutly HAVE TO HAVE the race bypass. Don't cheap out here, it will kick you in the butt. The stock one WILL NOT WORK AT ALL!
The vortech race bypass can be had new on ebay for $175.
a minimum of 38# injectors
I'm assuming you have the 255lph in tank pump that came with your vortech kit? If not, you need it. Summit has it for $200
If the motor isnt in yet, toss a set of I beam rods ($150 http://propowerperf.com/ call in and ask for Wild Bill) and you will be safe revving to 7K and up to 500rwhp. Swapping the rods is not a hard task at all.
Absolutly make sure you have the fuel pump and injectors before you get a retune. DO NOT get a mail order tune. Go to a dyno. You should see 375-400rwhp before your MAF pegs. Cars will vary.
Rickey_Bobby
New Member
You are 100% right, but all of this falls into common sense / luck / good ole Murphy's Law. Anyone pushing #'s like that should understand that they need a fuel system to keep up, and not to run 20* of timing... a big DUH.
I said that with the head mods (solid lifters, stainless valves, springs, and stainless retainers), it would support 7K rpm, and further, that I have run a stock bottom end to 7K without issues. Now it is TOTALLY up to the reader to make the call on weather their luck will be as good as mine.
Rickey_Bobby
New Member
As far as the boost thing, yea your about right about seeing 4PSI @ 3K. I was wrong there(after watching some vids) ...I have heard the stock pully sees around 1PSI @ 3500.
BUT thats still NOWHERE close to the 10PSI the KB would be seeing. SO what you were saying was still WOW over shot
I don't mean to question you, but you are using videos, and hearsay as proof...
There is no way to validate either source or to see what they are using for mods, or what type of tune they are running.
I stand by my statement that I have physically produced more power from the vortech than the 1.7KB from 2,900rpm (start of my dyno run) to 6,500rpm and at no point did the KB surpass the vortech. I also note that after 5000rpm the KB's flow curve flattens out as the vortech continues to increase. The KB will cap you into a specific HP and the vortech gives you about 150HP more of growing room, even better, the smaller the pulley you run on the vortech, the greater the increase in low end power. Also, a good tuner will advance the timing in the WOT low RPM range on a centuri car to help make up for the low end lag. This alone can add up to 40hp in the mid range... I was running 22* @ 3K RPM and down to 14* at 6,500rpm. Again, this is totally specific to local conditions, my mods, and my FMIC setup.
*this has absolutly nothing to do with this thread. Damn boredom!
well then you have the ultimate vortech!
I have lived the fact that a vortech S trim with a 3.33 pulley will NOT make more boost than a KB 1.7 at any RPM below 4800ish. With my 4.10's (and btw your dead wrong on that one to) I still dont get to the same boost level as a KB until around 4500.
not just here to argue, but I am running a vortech... have had it on the 2V and will run it on my new 4V, it just doesnt have the same low end as a KB BOTTOM LINE!
If you had to change gears for traction issues, then either you need more practice launching or you need some new shocks.
I have lived the fact that a vortech S trim with a 3.33 pulley will NOT make more boost than a KB 1.7 at any RPM below 4800ish. With my 4.10's (and btw your dead wrong on that one to) I still dont get to the same boost level as a KB until around 4500.
not just here to argue, but I am running a vortech... have had it on the 2V and will run it on my new 4V, it just doesnt have the same low end as a KB BOTTOM LINE!
If you had to change gears for traction issues, then either you need more practice launching or you need some new shocks.
Rickey_Bobby
New Member
well then you have the ultimate vortech!
I have lived the fact that a vortech S trim with a 3.33 pulley will NOT make more boost than a KB 1.7 at any RPM below 4800ish. With my 4.10's (and btw your dead wrong on that one to) I still dont get to the same boost level as a KB until around 4500.
not just here to argue, but I am running a vortech... have had it on the 2V and will run it on my new 4V, it just doesnt have the same low end as a KB BOTTOM LINE!
If you had to change gears for traction issues, then either you need more practice launching or you need some new shocks.
I was simply putting 430hp to the wheels...
You have the cash to do a 4V swap but cant seem to have traction issues with 4.10's and a vortech?... you might want to slap your tuner.
like before, totally unrelated to this thread. send me hate mail in PM form.
hotmustang331
Active Member
So whats going on here? Does the vortech with a 3.33 make 4.5PSI @ 2800RPMs or not? Other 3.3 pully owners chime in so we know for sure please! We cant just leave this in the air.
RB I was just going off what someone I trust told me about how much boost their vortech makes @ 3500RPM. Then when you said how much yours makes I watched a dyno vid of a GT with cams and a 2.9 pulley make 4PSI @ around 3000RPMs, SOOO I just gave you the benefit of the doubt...for the time being. You own a vortech...I dont. I cant argue how much boost your own car makes LOL.
BUT you and I both know that if you put a vortech with a 3.33 pulley on a stock GT...even with an IC, it wont surpass a stock GT with a KB 1.7 until way up in the RPM band. Definatly not at "all RPMs"...your statement is WAY to broad. In YOUR particular case hey maybe you tuned it to the edge and got a crap ton of lowend power and was surpassing a dyno sheet of a KB 1.7 car you found from 2900-6K, but that doesnt make it absolute and that the vortechs make better lowend torque .
RB I was just going off what someone I trust told me about how much boost their vortech makes @ 3500RPM. Then when you said how much yours makes I watched a dyno vid of a GT with cams and a 2.9 pulley make 4PSI @ around 3000RPMs, SOOO I just gave you the benefit of the doubt...for the time being. You own a vortech...I dont. I cant argue how much boost your own car makes LOL.
BUT you and I both know that if you put a vortech with a 3.33 pulley on a stock GT...even with an IC, it wont surpass a stock GT with a KB 1.7 until way up in the RPM band. Definatly not at "all RPMs"...your statement is WAY to broad. In YOUR particular case hey maybe you tuned it to the edge and got a crap ton of lowend power and was surpassing a dyno sheet of a KB 1.7 car you found from 2900-6K, but that doesnt make it absolute and that the vortechs make better lowend torque
.i have the mongoose kit 42# injectors,svt focus fuel pump,90mm maf and nice tune from tim @ mph
the motor is in just waiting on the alum flywheel from rpm outlet
i will order the 3.33 pulley in the morning and give jpc a call and see if i can get the car over there to get it tuned
before my motor blow even with the 3.60 pulley when i got the car dynoed i was making 352rwhp and 326rwtq and thats on a very conservative tune a/f ranged from 10.2@2500 rpm - 11.3@5800 rpms
and below 3500 i had about 1-2psi at 5600 i was at 8.5-9psi
but with 4.10's in the car your almost always at or around 3000 rpms
for me its reliabilty first and power second
i would rather drive a 400rwhp car for 3yrs then to drive a 550rwhp car for 6months
for me the limit is 400hp mark for safety then shortblock,heads,cams,fuel and more boost
the motor is in just waiting on the alum flywheel from rpm outlet
i will order the 3.33 pulley in the morning and give jpc a call and see if i can get the car over there to get it tuned
before my motor blow even with the 3.60 pulley when i got the car dynoed i was making 352rwhp and 326rwtq and thats on a very conservative tune a/f ranged from 10.2@2500 rpm - 11.3@5800 rpms
and below 3500 i had about 1-2psi at 5600 i was at 8.5-9psi
but with 4.10's in the car your almost always at or around 3000 rpms
for me its reliabilty first and power second
i would rather drive a 400rwhp car for 3yrs then to drive a 550rwhp car for 6months
for me the limit is 400hp mark for safety then shortblock,heads,cams,fuel and more boost
Rickey_Bobby
New Member
Nice man, seems like you have your ducks in a row. Best of luck with the new pulley. You will love it.
Also, if you're any good with a drill press, you can vent that pulley and reduce the belt slippage a LOT. The holes are 5/16" You want to drill them so that the holes intersect the bottom grooves in the pulley, but not to far out where they totally remove the upper grove material.
Looky:
Oh yea, just remember that 3.3 pulley voids your warrenty... Ghey Vortech
Also, if you're any good with a drill press, you can vent that pulley and reduce the belt slippage a LOT. The holes are 5/16" You want to drill them so that the holes intersect the bottom grooves in the pulley, but not to far out where they totally remove the upper grove material.
Looky:
Oh yea, just remember that 3.3 pulley voids your warrenty... Ghey Vortech
Attachments
nah,.. i just learned how to slip the clutch.
it's not hate mail man, just dont want people thinking they can slap on a 3.33 and go ass rape some 1.7 KB's. it would be a good race, but the KB has a better area under the curve.
oh, and I was making over 500 to the wheels.
Rickey_Bobby
New Member
Pix? Vids? oh wait, how about a pic of you at the dyno w/ your car making 500hp
Or a vid of your car with 4.10's, street tires, and 500HP launching.
slipping a clutch will not allow the tires to grip past their limit dumbass.
Also, you assume I can't drive.
Please don't bother replying without some sort of proof for your 500HP street tire car that has NO traction issues. I'm sure everyone on here would like to know how to get such a sweet rear suspension like you! Hell, patent it and your set.
stangman
15 Year Member
that's how to deal with it
but i can launch pretty well with the street tires as well
I dont need to respond with proof... he just did it for me
who ever said ANYTHING about street tires... if your looking to get street tires to hook with any sort of power... your spinning your wheels... pun intended
Although they don't "feel" as fast on the street, Vortechs run really well on the dragstrip. Who cares about how much boost at 2800 rpms? You'll be >4500 rpms throughout the 1/4 mile. I have taken on many KB cobras with my lowly 2v and an S-Trim. I lost a few, but won many more.
Manuals + 4.10's are great combo with centri blowers. On the dragstrip, I use 28" slicks, which gives me more than enough traction as well as trap rpms. 4.10's with 28" tire is equivalent to 3.73's and 26" tires in terms of rpms vs mph, but 28" will give you better 60ft times. On the street, with 4.10's, 26" DRs and 450+ rwhp, I just take off from idle in 2nd gear and have no problem with traction. See my video in my sig.
Manuals + 4.10's are great combo with centri blowers. On the dragstrip, I use 28" slicks, which gives me more than enough traction as well as trap rpms. 4.10's with 28" tire is equivalent to 3.73's and 26" tires in terms of rpms vs mph, but 28" will give you better 60ft times. On the street, with 4.10's, 26" DRs and 450+ rwhp, I just take off from idle in 2nd gear and have no problem with traction. See my video in my sig.
welll...?
Guys im sorry, but every time I see a KB 1.7 vs GT with v2, FMIC and 3.33 the KB gets raped, the KB gets the jump -( 1 -3 cars) then its all over, and it only gets worse with 4.10's. Maybe you guys could post some videos to refute me, im not saying its the law or anything - just that everytime Ive seen it - thats what happened
Guys im sorry, but every time I see a KB 1.7 vs GT with v2, FMIC and 3.33 the KB gets raped, the KB gets the jump -( 1 -3 cars) then its all over, and it only gets worse with 4.10's. Maybe you guys could post some videos to refute me, im not saying its the law or anything - just that everytime Ive seen it - thats what happened
SaleenGT2001
Well-Known Member
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