Still Running Hot

joetrainer31 said:

Interesting. I'm curious, how does this product overcome the limited bleeding capacity of the thermostat hole?

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Why are you focusing on the T-stat hole when the T-stat is fully open at or near the operating temperature. You can't bleed the system cold, period. Water is not flowing through the rad until the T-stat opens and when it does, if the cap is off and the rad is full, it will gush out and it will be hot.

I'm not suggesting to bleed the system when its cold. In fact, all my advice centered on letting the car cycle to the "R" in "NORMAL" and back to a lower temp to ensure proper operation. I am saying that if the cooling [system] has been emptied then there is an effective and proper way to re-fill it and bleed it the first time w/o any issues.

I say [system] because the system includes the rad, block, heater core, sensors, fan, and hoses. If there are air pockets in the block then the sensors (i.e., part of the system) will not relay the the correct temperature and the fan will not come on at the proper time. Furthermore, if the block is only partially full (due to air pockets after draining coolant) and the thermostat opens, then super heated low levels of coolant will rush into the rad that has an improper functioning fan. If the coolant wasn't already gushing out because of the fan's failure, it surely will at this juncture.

The air pocket(s) must be removed from the block/core, and the means that Ford engineers choose to accomplish this is a tiny little hole at the top of the thermostat. When the stat opens water rushes into the block, but the air that is already in the block has to come out at the same time. That's where that hole comes into play. However, the hole can also be used to fill the block when the vehicle is off. It takes a while, but that's why it is advantageous to drill a secondary hole next to it.

If one doesn't use the means that Ford engineers provided they will most likely end up like the two fellows in the posts; non-functioning heater and engine overheating issues. The one guy who followed the advice I got from a tech and gave him had no problems after he finished the job because the method works. I used the same method on my car after having emptied the block and rad. It worked great the first time. I hope I'm communicating clearly and answering your question, toyman.

no, work with what you got. You almost there!!!

I personally would have done a full flush whenever you changed the stat. But we are not talking about me.

With that being said if your still getting residue on your new cap I would say its worth fully flushing.

I would not be surprised if your head gasket had a small hole or tear in it pushing the smallest amount of air in and keeping you guessing.

Just my .02

before you flush, wouldn't hurt to run an exhaust gas coolant test to make sure the head gasket isn't the problem. Pray to the car gods for blue. You'll know what I mean when you do the test.

Yea i agree with mikestang 63 Sounds like a head gasket or cracked head to me...could be how your hose blew apart and getting air in system

If you have a set of extra hands and someone who is knowledgeable about cars you can do it yourself for price of head gaskets.

You will know once you take the heads off if the gaskets are blown but you should still have your heads surfaced and use a flat blade razor and clean the block as much as possible.

You will have to replace the head gaskets eventually. They do go bad so don't get discouraged and think you need a rebuild immediately,just dont run your car hot for to long. Check the heads for cracks and coolant seepage.

joetrainer31 said:

The air pocket(s) must be removed from the block/core, and the means that Ford engineers choose to accomplish this is a tiny little hole at the top of the thermostat. When the stat opens water rushes into the block, but the air that is already in the block has to come out at the same time. That's where that hole comes into play. However, the hole can also be used to fill the block when the vehicle is off. It takes a while, but that's why it is advantageous to drill a secondary hole next to it.

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This is where you have it wrong or wrong as I read it. The water flows from the block to the rad and what I read you have it reversed. Here's the reference from the FORD CD version of the service manual.

When the coolant is cold, the water thermostat (8575) is in the closed position and the coolant flow is restricted to the cylinder block (6010), cylinder heads (6049), intake manifold (9424) and heater core. As the temperature increases, the water thermostat opens, allowing a portion of the coolant to pass into the radiator (8005).

The only thing that hole can do is allow trapped air to bleed through the T-stat before it opens and the engine comes to temperature. Once the T-stat has opened the hole has no functional purpose.

toyman said:

This is where you have it wrong or wrong as I read it. The water flows from the block to the rad and what I read you have it reversed. Here's the reference from the FORD CD version of the service manual.

When the coolant is cold, the water thermostat (8575) is in the closed position and the coolant flow is restricted to the cylinder block (6010), cylinder heads (6049), intake manifold (9424) and heater core. As the temperature increases, the water thermostat opens, allowing a portion of the coolant to pass into the radiator (8005).

The only thing that hole can do is allow trapped air to bleed through the T-stat before it opens and the engine comes to temperature. Once the T-stat has opened the hole has no functional purpose.

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Thanks toyman! That says what I'm trying to say, only much more clear. I'd also say that the water also flows from the rad to the block (i.e., its a circuit). I think I was stating it from that point of view. It's not an either/or, its a both/and. Does that make sense?

The reason the steps I gave worked for me, and for the other fellow who followed them is because they are the proper steps to follow according the function of Ford's designed cooling system, and a Ford engine building guru that I know. It's not my idea, it's what works according to Ford.

Anyhow, thank you for your diligence in researching and clarifying what I was trying to say, toyman! You're always a knowledgeable help.

So now you guys went from a bubble in the system to a head gasket is bad??? Wow.... There is a bubble in the system, you may have to get a friend that knows how to bleed the system to help you. Sounds like your having a little trouble. Anyone in this guys area wanna help him out??? It is a pain in the arse to do and I understand your troubles.... just sounds like you need some help

elarm1 said:

So now you guys went from a bubble in the system to a head gasket is bad??? Wow.... There is a bubble in the system, you may have to get a friend that knows how to bleed the system to help you. Sounds like your having a little trouble. Anyone in this guys area wanna help him out??? It is a pain in the arse to do and I understand your troubles.... just sounds like you need some help

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Elarm1, I have not changed my position. I originally said, and still say, that there is an air pocket issue. Furthermore, if the system is not bled correctly one can easily blow a head gasket. Also, I'm still willing and available to walk someone through the process via phone, FaceTime, Skype, or whatever if they would like the help.

I think that it is a possibility if he has followed all steps to bleeding the system and still is having the reoccurring issue. Do you think that having a bad head gasket is out of the question? I would like to understand your thought process on this.

I know first hand chasing a "air pocket" or what you would believe to be one is aggravating. I have been down that road and replaced everything water pump,t-stat,radiator and all hoses and had it bled properly only to find out I actually had a blown head gasket.

All I am saying is that if you have new hoses and new cap and stat you will be able to bleed the system out. If your still having the same issue I would think that the air is coming from somewhere especially after replacing the cap and having a residue and slim on the cap already.

Having slime and residue on the cap can just be old corrosion in the block. I don't care how good you think you can "flush" the block out, that corrosion still will be there. Fact is, there is a pocket in the system and until he gets it out he will have an overheating problem. There are tests he can do to determine if there is a blown hg but he still has to get the air pocket out! First things first guys

88stang88 said:

I think that it is a possibility if he has followed all steps to bleeding the system and still is having the reoccurring issue. Do you think that having a bad head gasket is out of the question? I would like to understand your thought process on this.

I know first hand chasing a "air pocket" or what you would believe to be one is aggravating. I have been down that road and replaced everything water pump,t-stat,radiator and all hoses and had it bled properly only to find out I actually had a blown head gasket.

All I am saying is that if you have new hoses and new cap and stat you will be able to bleed the system out. If your still having the same issue I would think that the air is coming from somewhere especially after replacing the cap and having a residue and slim on the cap already.

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88stang88, you seem to understand what im saying perfectly. Let me just summarize because there are a few conditions to consider:

1) if one has followed all the steps [in proper sequence], and if his parts are new AND tested, unless they are Motorcraft; meaning that the stat has been boiled, and the cap has been pressure tested, and he still has a reoccurring overheating issue, then it is certainly possible that there is a head gasket problem.

HOWEVER, I stated earlier that the first thing to check for is a head gasket issue (e.g., water in oil, or oil in water). I wanted him to check this first because I had no idea how hot the engine was actually getting, regardless of the gauges, or how long he had been driving like that. Plus, its easy to check for those two issues. As a side note: head gaskets can be blown w/o manifesting those two conditions, but that is a more rare occurrence and I didnt want to complicate matters by suggesting that. So yes, a blown gasket is certainly possible, but I would follow the proceedure before jumping into that expense.

2) I'm sorry for your wild goose chase. That certainly stinks after all that work.

3) Yes, if the system has been bled correctly, and that's not regularly accomplished, and one still gets air from somewhere, then a head gasket is the prime suspect. BUT make sure its air, and not an inefficient cooling system. If there is any rust or scale one must flush the system properly and consider replacing the hoses as they will have built up sediment in them too. FURTHERMORE, I would pressure test the radiator to make sure that it can hold pressure and is not drawing outside air.

Residue or slim on the cap is certainly a problem, but one must determine what kind of residue/slime it is in order to properly diagnose the concern.

4) Lastly, someone else mentioned this point in the posts, and I wholeheartedly agree; don't overlook a worn out tensioner, and do not rely on the indicator arrows to help you diagnose. A bad tensioner will make a rumbling noise, or a kind of loose broken noise, and it will allow the car to overheat in 5th gear, but not necessarily 1st-4th gear. If one's tensioner is around or over 100k miles/12-15years old, just replace it and save the headaches.

Was that clear? Does that make sense? I hope the tensioner bit didnt confuse things. Please let me know if I failed to be clear.