Suspension SetUp

[23Newb]

Noobz are there restrictions to the format, sizing of pictures? When i open my photo album only a few are even able to add to Media, but when i select one to try I get an error code saying it wasnt correct

 

[Warhorse Racing]

Having some issues loading pictures onto the site, but think it is my computer.

More importantly - tomorrow the drivetrain should be in the mustang, and once it is running the suspension upgrades are going to begin (rear C springs will go in while doing the rear end swap). The pedal swap wasnt fun but not as bad as anticipated, after swapping the transmission cross member from the mustang I was cutting the tunnel for the shifter and realized there are two trans mounts on the chassis so will probably have to pull the AOD mounts out and swap the TC cross member back.

Suspension question - back in the day the PanHard set up was the stuff of dreams, so now considering whether or not it is actually necessary? Is there a drastic improvement from the seat of your pants scale??

Warhorse - front swaybar question for you. After watching your video I am second guessing my choice to run the beefy TC front swaybar ( it didnt come with a rear so def putting the TC rear in ). Thoughts

Have taken pictures along the way so hopefully i can sort it out

Thanks for the update on the project! I'm hoping more people will add their thoughts on the suspension upgrades, because it's always good to have more than one POV. I'll do my best to provide some balanced information...

I have never personally used a Panhard bar, but I have driven, been a passenger in, and competed against many cars that use a PB/Torque Arm setup. While it wouldn't be my first choice for a rear suspension upgrade, I know many people who are very satisfied with how a PB/TA setup performs on an autocross course. I used a less expensive and lighter setup (the now discontinued Steeda adjustable rear sway bar & Steeda UCAs and LCAs) and my SRA cars were competitive against cars with a PB/TA setup. I was faster some of the time and I was slower some of the time. On paper (and according to many people on the internet) my rear suspension setup should never have been anywhere near as good as a PB/TA. Based on my experience, and because you don't plan on racing the car, I think a PB/TA is overkill for your build.

Assuming the TC rear end is compatible with all of these parts, I would recommend using a good set of UCAs/LCAs with 3-piece poly bushings (Steeda or J&M), spherical upper differential housing bushings (J&M), and an OEM Mustang 23mm rear sway bar (I'm not sure how big/stiff the OEM TC rear sway bar is).

Your front sway bar choice will probably end up being stiffer than the OEM 2.3L Mustang front sway bar, but the exact stiffness will depend on all of your other suspension mods (and what the car is doing at the limit of traction). Putting a "beefy" front sway bar on a car with no rear sway bar will increase the tendency to understeer when the car is pushed, so I wouldn't recommend doing that.

It would be irresponsible for me not to mention that my cars rely heavily on adjustability, which includes adjustable shocks & struts. My SRA cars are set pretty soft. If you plan on using stiffer non-adjustable aftermarket shocks and struts and driving the car hard, you might have to rethink your sway bar choices. You want to make sure all the parts in the suspension system will work together.

 

[23Newb]

Thanks - like your video said i will "never throw away a swaybar" haha Hopefully will get a chance to measure all three of the swaybars I currently have - stock 2.3 NA Mustang front as well as TC front and rear - and start playing with them to see what works best.

Still have a brand new set of Prothane rear poly bushings that are probably going to go on till I decide which arms to go with, MM caught me off guard with their recommendation NOT to use poly uppper bushings, but as you said they are probably set up an entire rear suspension that works. Hadnt heard of J&M before coming back to the Mustang scene so will take a second look at those - thanks

I use Bilstein in all my cars, but as far as i know they dont make an adjustable shock / strut but maybe it is time to try something different.

Finally thanks for the input on the PanHard setup. Hard not to get all the fun stuff I could not afford when i was young haha

 

[Warhorse Racing]

Thanks - like your video said i will "never throw away a swaybar" haha Hopefully will get a chance to measure all three of the swaybars I currently have - stock 2.3 NA Mustang front as well as TC front and rear - and start playing with them to see what works best.

Still have a brand new set of Prothane rear poly bushings that are probably going to go on till I decide which arms to go with, MM caught me off guard with their recommendation NOT to use poly uppper bushings, but as you said they are probably set up an entire rear suspension that works. Hadnt heard of J&M before coming back to the Mustang scene so will take a second look at those - thanks

I use Bilstein in all my cars, but as far as i know they dont make an adjustable shock / strut but maybe it is time to try something different.

Finally thanks for the input on the PanHard setup. Hard not to get all the fun stuff I could not afford when i was young haha

I've picked up at least one more rear sway bar since making that video. I expect to have to experiment with a few sway bars on my 2.3L project.

The UCA debate is an interesting one. MM has their POV; other companies have found success with a different approach. Having done over 100 autocross events with Steeda UCAs on my cars, I can tell you that the right UCAs will perform very well. The bushings make a huge difference. I haven't used J&M rear control arms on my cars, but I have used their spherical UDH bushings and brake lines in the past. I've been happy with the quality of their parts, and they tend to be less expensive than other brands. If I didn't go with the Steeda aluminum rear control arms on my 2.3L, I would have used the J&M rear control arms, so I could give them a good test under autocross conditions.

If Bilstein shocks and struts have worked well for you in the past, they might be the right choice for this car. I don't want to steer you toward parts that aren't necessary for your build. The benefits of adjustable shocks and struts are that they help improve the ride of your car on bad roads, and they allow you to adjust for understeer & oversteer. They help you move the limit of traction further OUT. On the street, you should never come close to the limit of traction. My concern with most aftermarket shocks and struts is that they are much stiffer than stock. Many people install stiff springs, stiff shocks and struts, and stiff sway bars on their Mustangs and find out that they've moved the limit of traction further IN (usually in an emergency situation). The car feels fine for normal cruising, but it's not as capable as it could be when pushed. Based on how you intend to use this car, I don't think adjustable shocks and struts are a requirement. But they're a good option. If you have a chance to ride in a car with adjustable shocks and struts before making your decision, it's worth seeing how the car responds to the adjustments.

I can't fully vouch for their performance, but I had a good first impression of the KYB AGX shocks and struts that I recommended for the Humble Mechanic Mustang build. There's not a lot of good data out there about those shocks and struts, but they are reasonably priced.

You will be amazed by how well your car will handle with a few carefully chosen mods. Having said that, part of the fun of building a car is installing parts you've always wanted to use. A PB/TA is a good setup. If you've always wanted to use that setup, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

 

[23Newb]

Got the car fired up today so now i just need to clean it all up and then install the rear TC diff with poly bushings and then will start swapping the front suspension bits - looking forward to experimenting honestly.

Will check into some other options for shocks / struts - used to want the Tokico adjustables around the same time i wanted the PanHard rod so will see how things work out. Dont think i will have a chance to ride in an adjustable car before tearing into mine, but will do my research before buying - and of course let everyone know my impression after install.

This car was never meant to be a rocket, but it has to be able to "play" in the corners. Really enjoy the mountain drives in my area, but dont need a car that I will never be able to use to its full potential.

More fun driving a slow car fast, than driving a fast car slow!!

thanks again for the info

 

[Warhorse Racing]

Got the car fired up today so now i just need to clean it all up and then install the rear TC diff with poly bushings and then will start swapping the front suspension bits - looking forward to experimenting honestly.

Will check into some other options for shocks / struts - used to want the Tokico adjustables around the same time i wanted the PanHard rod so will see how things work out. Dont think i will have a chance to ride in an adjustable car before tearing into mine, but will do my research before buying - and of course let everyone know my impression after install.

This car was never meant to be a rocket, but it has to be able to "play" in the corners. Really enjoy the mountain drives in my area, but dont need a car that I will never be able to use to its full potential.

More fun driving a slow car fast, than driving a fast car slow!!

thanks again for the info

Glad to hear you got the car fired up!

The Tokico adjustable shocks and struts have been discontinued. The KYB AGX shocks & struts are the closest replacement I've found that adjust for compression and rebound at a reasonable price. Koni Double Adjustable shocks and struts are very expensive. Koni Single Adjustable shocks and struts are more reasonable, but still more expensive than the KYB AGX set.

If you'd like, I can suggest a few mods that will make the car handle much better without going overboard.

 

[23Newb]

Sounds great! Would love to hear some ideas on a well balanced set up

 

[Warhorse Racing]

Sounds great! Would love to hear some ideas on a well balanced set up

Making SRA 79-04 Mustangs handle better without going overboard means choosing parts that eliminate the “factory-installed flaws” all Fox Body and SN95 Mustangs have. They have a tendency to understeer at the limit of traction, they’re prone to “quadra-bind” when pushed, and they can all benefit from chassis bracing. Years ago, I came up with a recipe to make my cars perform better with fewer mods. I’ve used almost everything on this list (or some version of it) on my 1992 Mustang GT and my 2000 Mustang GT convertible (before the IRS swap). Both cars were completely neutral despite being nose-heavy and tail-happy from the factory. Both cars performed very well at autocross events, even without an aftermarket K-member, coil-overs, or a PB/TA rear suspension. I’ve modified the list a bit to better suit the 2.3L, and I removed some items that would be overkill for a street car.

I included prices from a recent search, but they might have gone up since then.

Every input goes through the chassis; at the very least I would do:

Full-length subframe connectors (Stifflers) (must be welded) $189

4-pt lower K-member brace (Stifflers) $119; Steeda makes a 2-point for $60

A 3-point strut tower brace really helps our cars, but I haven’t found a currently available strut tower brace that fits a 2.3L. This is another area where the aftermarket lets 2.3L cars down. You might be able to modify one if you have fabrication skills.

Improving the weak links in the suspension will make a big difference.

Add a rear sway bar (23mm OEM GT rear bar).

We discussed spring options earlier in this thread. My favorite springs for SRA V8 & V6 Mustangs are the Ford Performance “C” springs (they might not work well on a 2.3L). We also discussed the Eibach 4-cylinder-specific springs. In general, I wouldn’t lower the car more than 1”. Linear springs are better for performance driving; progressive springs are more comfortable on the street.

Adjustable shocks & struts. Some people will say they are overkill for a street car, but they are fundamental to all of my builds. As I mentioned in a previous post, I haven’t personally used the KYB AGX kit ($525), but it seems like a good option. I’m including a link to a video that shows how adjustable shocks & struts help dial-in the suspension.

Forward-offset A-arm bushings. They come in poly or Del-A-Lum. They move the A-arms forward and add caster, which helps with corner entry and turn-in. I use Global West Del-A-Lum A-arm bushings on my 1992 GT and I love them. They cost about $190. You MUST use a press to install them.

Poly or Delrin steering rack bushings.

A good set of UCAs/LCAs with 3-piece poly bushings. (J&M or Steeda) $300-$495

J&M spherical upper differential housing bushings $90

CC plates (J&M $160). It’s common to run into camber adjustment issues when changing spindles. My 1992 GT with 96-04 spindles is limited to about -1.3 degrees of camber, even with CC plates.

Your front sway bar size/stiffness will depend on how the car feels with all the other mods in place, but I expect you’ll want one that is larger/stiffer than the OEM 2.3L front sway bar. When you determine which sway bar will work best, I recommend using poly sway bar bushings and end links with poly bushings.

With those mods, you’ll be able to get the car neutral and move the overall limit of traction much further out than stock. The chassis bracing will help you get the most out of every suspension mod you make. With the right adjustments, it will feel like a completely different car.

This video might also help. It covers how to adjust your autocross suspension. The Steeda adjustable rear sway bar has been discontinued, but you can add oversteer with stiffer/larger rear sway bars.

 

[23Newb]

Looks like a solid plan, with a few things that didnt occur to me. Appreciate the input and love the video, have found your videos very informative and helpful.

Planning on selling the Prothane poly rear kit and go with the Upper and Lower arms, and the spherical uppers

 

[Warhorse Racing]

Looks like a solid plan, with a few things that didnt occur to me. Appreciate the input and love the video, have found your videos very informative and helpful.

Planning on selling the Prothane poly rear kit and go with the Upper and Lower arms, and the spherical uppers

I'm always happy to help! I'm glad the videos are helpful, too.

I think you'll be very happy with the better rear control arms and bushings.

 

[ChillPhatCat]

FWIW I threw on the Eibach 36mm Front /25mm Rear swaybars on my mostly stock 4-banger and I really like how it feels in the corners. It feels pretty balanced... much better than stock with the 15/16 front and no rear bar. I've always liked the feel of fairly docile springs and big swaybars, but it rides really well on the highway this way... 1 finger on the wheel cruising. Might like a slightly stiffer spring in the future but I don't know if I'll ever attempt AutoX either. Only word of caution about those fat swaybars is that you actually end up needing a rack limiter on the steering rack because the tires rub on the sway bar at full lock... and centering is crucial because the ends of the front swaybar are about 1/8" from the struts at full lock.

 

[23Newb]

Thanks Chilli. Did you swap out the 4cyl 20:1 steering rack?

 

[ChillPhatCat]

Thanks Chilli. Did you swap out the 4cyl 20:1 steering rack?

Rack is still stock, I put some 8mm spacers behind the front wheels for a while which cleared up the rubbing, but I did not like that solution and for now I am just avoiding full lock turns until I upgrade wheels or more likely just buy some limiters to stuff in there. It is just a problem with the rubber though, I did not notice any rubbing from the wheels themselves. Running 15x7 turbines and 225/60 tires.

The main issue I always run into with this car is that most performance parts are designed for the V8 cars and things always seem to be off just slightly when it comes to our cars. For instance, look at the clutch fork on a manual 4 cly and compare to a V8... you know a project manager told the engineers to just fix it as cheap as possible instead of making the 4 cyl geometry as good as the V8. I am actually sitting on a hydraulic clutch conversion kit at the moment but the clutch fork stopped up the works because of this lever arm that is there in place of direct connection to the clutch fork like on the V8s... some day I'll be posting up that adventure. lol

 

[23Newb]

Right now the car is sitting on 16inch pony rims as they were on the parts car, and it feels like there is rubbing at full turn but the plan is to go with the 17inch Cobra R rims after putting the new suspension on it so wonder if limiters aren't in my near future.

Yeah the whole 4cyl performance part thing really is a little frustrating at times as there are always questions whether or not the part will work. Let alone the quality of products made for 4cyl as you eluded to, luckily the turbo coupe had a hydraulic clutch system so it wasnt necessary to upgrade to the v8 stuff right off the bat.

Home for a few days so hopefully the driveshaft has been shortened and i can try out the new drivetrain. Cant wait to put the suspension stuff on and test it out on the seat of your pants dyno

 

[23Newb]

Warhorse, do recommend the Steeda Control Arms over the J&Ms? Putting together orders this week while home, so wondering which way to go.

Also do all the Del-A-Lum bushings move the control arm forward, or is there a specific part needed to do that?

 

[Warhorse Racing]

Warhorse, do recommend the Steeda Control Arms over the J&Ms? Putting together orders this week while home, so wondering which way to go.

Also do all the Del-A-Lum bushings move the control arm forward, or is there a specific part needed to do that?

I haven't personally used the J&M rear control arms. I have used/seen other J&M parts, and I've been impressed with their quality. Because I've had such a great experience with the Steeda steel and aluminum rear control arms on my autocross cars, I would recommend them as my first choice.

The GW Del-A-Lum bushings (P# 1046RD) move the A-arms forward. They are listed as working for 80-88 Thunderbirds and 83-93 Mustangs.

Here's a link: https://www.globalwest.net/1046rd.html

 

[23Newb]

Thanks. Was checking out the Steeda website as they are company that I recognize, so will probably go that way

Have you tried the Global West LCAs? Ask because they use the same bushing

 

[Warhorse Racing]

Thanks. Was checking out the Steeda website as they are company that I recognize, so will probably go that way

Have you tried the Global West LCAs? Ask because they use the same bushing

You can't go wrong with Steeda parts. But I do think the J&M parts would also perform well.

Do you mean GW A-arms or their rear LCAs? I asked GW about their A-arms a couple of years ago. They said they are heavier than OEM arms, so I opted not to use them. I haven't tried the GW rear LCAs because I assume they are heavier than the Steeda aluminum rear control arms I've used for years. I also prefer the 3-piece poly bushing on the chassis-side of the rear arms. I'm sure there are many autocrossers that prefer a spherical bushing on the chassis-side of the arms.

I haven't tried the new Steeda LCAs, but they look pretty good. These are definitely overkill for a street car...

Steeda Mustang Billet Lower Control Arms w/ Urethane Bushings (1979-1998)

Steeda's 555-4425 lower control arms give your Mustang more control and improves launches.

www.steeda.com

 

[23Newb]

War while looking through the Steeda website I came across their Ball Joints for the SN95 front swap and wondered if you had any experience, or heard from anyone that has used these? The description sounds convincing, and as i need to purchase a new set of ball joints wondering whether to buy the stock SN95 or maybe Steeda

Those Billet pieces look pretty nice, but as you said overkill for my car

 

[Warhorse Racing]

War while looking through the Steeda website I came across their Ball Joints for the SN95 front swap and wondered if you had any experience, or heard from anyone that has used these? The description sounds convincing, and as i need to purchase a new set of ball joints wondering whether to buy the stock SN95 or maybe Steeda

Those Billet pieces look pretty nice, but as you said overkill for my car

I haven't felt the need to use the Steeda X2 ball joints on my cars. I don't lower my cars very much, and I've been happy with how they've performed with OEM-style Moog ball joints. I don't think the Steeda ball joints will hurt the performance of your car, they just might not be absolutely necessary. It's worth mentioning that the "Important Details" section in the Steeda X2 ball joint description lists the additional mods you might need to make.