T5 swap - specific questions...

SadbutTrue

SadbutTrue

Founding Member
May 1, 2002
2,390
4
49
Granada Hills, California
#1
edited

I have a few questions, fairly specific (xept the first one), about the swap. Thanks to bottlefed70 for his writeup a few months ago which greatly helped direct the questions (I saw in the FAQs people had mentioned a T5 swap FAQ was going to go up.. is it up yet? Didn't see it in my search)...

1) What is essential in a rebuilt/new T5 that will help it withstand a 400 hp/400 tq 351w in a 3200 lb car with standard tires (it won't be drag raced, but driven in a spirited manner)? I see 'performance' rebuilt T5s on ebay for 900 or so... and I'm going to ask my local transmission shop what he'd charge for something similar. Essentially, what are specific features to any T5 that I should make sure to ask for to make the transmission last? Right now my engine probably wouldn't challenge the T5 too much, but I'm planning on running something roughly akin to the aforementioned ratings in time...

2) What are some flywheel/bellhousing/driveshaft length/spline matches/ etc combos that will work with a 65-66 T5? I see in another thread someone is having some issues with the having the correct flywheel size and tooth # for a given bellhousing... i'd like to avoid that...

3) I had heard that the C4 and T5 have the same length driveshaft. Is this true? Will the u-joint need to be changed (i'm assuming thats a yes)?

4) I see most people buying used clutch pedal assemblies off ebay. Is there much risk to this? Do any of the major companies sell kits with the parts you need to install new ones (the NPD catalog had new clutch pedals and then piles of related parts, but i didn't see anythign like a kit... that might be asking too much, I suppose)?

5) Any opinions on hydraulic vs cable clutch? And any opinions on what clutch i should use?

6) How much fox-body stuff can you use? I noticed bottlefed70 re-used a fox flywheel, and used a fox clutch cable and some other things. With fox performance components as plentiful as they are...

7) How well do shifters like Pro 5.0s (the favorite of late models) work in classics?

8) I have heddman long-tube (well, i think they're considered longtubes, i suppose they're somewhat borderline) swap headers for my 351w.. will they interfere?

Anything you can tell me is greatly appreciate. If there are any other major things I should look for, please let me know.

edit: in case anyone was wondering, the C4 issues were a combination of the carb runnign too rich and a vacuum leak, giving the (false) impression of the transmission slipping. C4 needed some more fluid and is now shifting perfectly, the things a trooper
 
#2
I stock T5 and even a stock world class T5 really wont last too long behind a 351w. You need to get a T5 and upgrade the internals so that it will last. You can also try a T5z. I would suguest you go to modern driveline's website and do some reading about the history of the T5. That might give you some insight.

As far as the drive shaft, yer going to need a new one. Just take the measurements like the driveshaft shop tells you and provide them with the numbers. You will get one from them that fits right in.

Use what ever clutch you like that will fit your flywheel.

Use what ever flywheel you like, I would recomend a 10.5" flywheel.

I think you will need to run a hydrolic clutch because you don't have a lot of room in your engine bay.

I have a Hurst competition pro billit or what ever it is called in my 67. Fit without any mods.

You need to use a T5 yoke. I have heard that some C4s have the same spline patern and can be shortened or something to fit a T5.... this was SO not the case with my C4 yoke.
 
#3
Rusty67 said:
I stock T5 and even a stock world class T5 really wont last too long behind a 351w. You need to get a T5 and upgrade the internals so that it will last. You can also try a T5z. I would suguest you go to modern driveline's website and do some reading about the history of the T5. That might give you some insight.
Click to expand...

Any specifics on what 'internals' need to be upgraded? I'm sure there are places taht will telll me they've upgraded some 'internals' but.. well... won't exactly give me the type of upgrades that I'm going to need.
 
#6
SadbutTrue said:
Any specifics on what 'internals' need to be upgraded? I'm sure there are places taht will telll me they've upgraded some 'internals' but.. well... won't exactly give me the type of upgrades that I'm going to need.
Click to expand...

This part may be like my top-loader from a 69 Mach.....when I called Dan Williams and told him what it was doing he rattled-off a list of parts and machine-shop services that added-up to about $1200.00......in 1996. I then sold the top-loader and shifter with the cross-member and bought a world class t-5. But I'll never put more than 300 cid in front of it. With a 351 you might want to consider a Tremec and sell the t-5. I think you will be happy with the results.
And does the Tremec not have top-loader internals?
 
#7
mikethebike said:
This part may be like my top-loader from a 69 Mach.....when I called Dan Williams and told him what it was doing he rattled-off a list of parts and machine-shop services that added-up to about $1200.00......in 1996. I then sold the top-loader and shifter with the cross-member and bought a world class t-5. But I'll never put more than 300 cid in front of it. With a 351 you might want to consider a Tremec and sell the t-5. I think you will be happy with the results.
And does the Tremec not have top-loader internals?
Click to expand...

THe issue is... how severe is the tranny tunnel 'moving' that you have to do? That sounds like a huge job. I'd love a tremec, but that is a big hurdle since my car is a 66 and has the tiny transmission tunnel.
 
#8
If you are willing to spend the cash then get a T5 that was built by G-Force.

Some Tremec trans are larger then others. I think it is possible to fit some of the smaller ones into the 65-66 without tunnel mods but I don't know for sure.
 
#9
Rusty67 said:
If you are willing to spend the cash then get a T5 that was built by G-Force.

Some Tremec trans are larger then others. I think it is possible to fit some of the smaller ones into the 65-66 without tunnel mods but I don't know for sure.
Click to expand...

Currently looking at Gforce and Astro T5s, in addition to some smaller companies... Texas motorsports and Liberty gears, specifically. The latter 3 offer high performance rebuilds with cluster gear retaining plate, steel bearing retainers and the T5z gearset with the stronger 2.95 1st gear for around 900-1100. Astro also offers an A-5 rebuilt transmission with 9310 gears (like gforce's), rated to 400 or so lb-ft, along with a clutch and pressure plate for just over 2000 with a core. Gforce itself seems a bit more expensive, and probably out of my range.

I also have been reading up on Tremec swaps and the transmission tunnel moving/moving the engine/transmission back, and custom crossmembers seems a bit out of my league at the moment... (fwiw it appears the 3550 and the entire TKO line are the same size, and all too big to get into a 66 without the aforementioned work).

The main difference simply seems to come down to those gears. Anyone have experience with these companies or types of transmissions? I know red65 has an A-5 and some people have gforce, i know bottlefed70 recently did a t5 swap (and then had a thread two weeks later askign how to beef it up, which sorta made me worry a bit), and I believe I've heard of texas motorsports mentioned around here.... speak up! :)

And I am wondering about those headers... anyone know if the heddman swappers conflict with the t-5?

Thanks
 
#10
+1 to everone's advice. The headers will probably not work with the stock clutch arangement though but a cable clutch will give you plenty of room. I am building my 66 and keeping it original in appearance but updated functions. To that end I'm contempating a T5 swap as well but plan to use the original clutch setup which severly limits my header choices.
 
#11
1) What is essential in a rebuilt/new T5 that will help it withstand a 400 hp/400 tq 351w in a 3200 lb car with standard tires?

Skip the high dollar G-force and whatnot and go with a used T5 and see if you break it. If you do, then go G-force. If you don't, then drive and smile. I believe the T5's succumb to hard shifts that force the fork farther than it's supposed to go, more than anything.

There is one cheap and easy mod, a steel countershaft collar that an outfit called Medatronic sells, that couldn't hurt. It provides a more solid mount for the gear cluster, and it's when things get out of square that things break.

Also, if your T5 has an aluminum bearing retainer, replace it with a steel one or with an iron one from Medatronic. The TO bearing chews up the aluminum one.

2) What are some flywheel/bellhousing/driveshaft length/spline matches/ etc combos that will work with a 65-66 T5?

I went from a 3.03 3-spd to a T5 and I had to replace the yoke.

Some people don't have to cut their driveshafts at all. I had mine cut 1", after measuring three or four times, and when I got it back it seems too short. The important thing is that it not bottom out against the output shaft, so shove it on all the way and see how much clearance to the pinion yoke you've got. You should have about 1" of yoke showing at the tranny end, with the rear axle at ride height.

3) I had heard that the C4 and T5 have the same length driveshaft. Is this true? Will the u-joint need to be changed (i'm assuming thats a yes)?

See "2".

4) I see most people buying used clutch pedal assemblies off ebay. Is there much risk to this? Do any of the major companies sell kits with the parts you need to install new ones (the NPD catalog had new clutch pedals and then piles of related parts, but i didn't see anythign like a kit... that might be asking too much, I suppose)?

Scott Drake makes a real nice bearing kit for the pivot shaft. I would put one of these on regardless, and this will also cure any egging out you might find in a used pedal support. If the egging out is real bad, you have to weld the bearing on, but at least it's a good fix.

I believe many vendors -- Modern Driveline? -- will furnish you with a kit with everything you need to convert from auto to T5.

5) Any opinions on hydraulic vs cable clutch? And any opinions on what clutch i should use?

The Z-bar is best. I can't comment on cables, but I've got a McLeod hydraulic throwout bearing and a JMC master cyl on my '65 and I do not like the lack of feel. I stall the engine all the time. (Maybe I should turn down the stereo.)

6) How much fox-body stuff can you use? I noticed bottlefed70 re-used a fox flywheel, and used a fox clutch cable and some other things. With fox performance components as plentiful as they are...

Don't know. I've got a Ram billet flywheel that's drilled for both the old style and the Fox, and it fits in the '65 bell with the '65 starter. I presently have a Fox style pressure plate by McLeod. I am very happy with McLeod. I would avoid Ram clutches.

7) How well do shifters like Pro 5.0s (the favorite of late models) work in classics?

They generally seem to require trimming a notch or two in the tunnel hole to fit the stop screws. This was the case with the MGW (gold handle) in my '65. But it's those stop screws that protect the tranny from the overshifting that so frequently destroys the T5.

8) I have heddman long-tube (well, i think they're considered longtubes, i suppose they're somewhat borderline) swap headers for my 351w.. will they interfere?

I don't know. I have no name tri-y's and they fit. Stay away from the Cal Pony cross member, though. These geniuses only recently started drilling the mounting holes in the right place, but they still use a parking brake bracket that points the lever right at the exhaust. Why not leave it at stock height? IIRC I got a usable crossmember from NPD. (I have a Cal Pony one -- with the mounting holes egged out so they actually match a Mustang -- for free if you want it.)

I also have a steel bearing retainer to give away. I've got the iron Medatronic one.
 
#12
180 Out said:
1) What is essential in a rebuilt/new T5 that will help it withstand a 400 hp/400 tq 351w in a 3200 lb car with standard tires?

Skip the high dollar G-force and whatnot and go with a used T5 and see if you break it. If you do, then go G-force. If you don't, then drive and smile. I believe the T5's succumb to hard shifts that force the fork farther than it's supposed to go, more than anything.

There is one cheap and easy mod, a steel countershaft collar that an outfit called Medatronic sells, that couldn't hurt. It provides a more solid mount for the gear cluster, and it's when things get out of square that things break.

Also, if your T5 has an aluminum bearing retainer, replace it with a steel one or with an iron one from Medatronic. The TO bearing chews up the aluminum one.

2) What are some flywheel/bellhousing/driveshaft length/spline matches/ etc combos that will work with a 65-66 T5?

I went from a 3.03 3-spd to a T5 and I had to replace the yoke.

Some people don't have to cut their driveshafts at all. I had mine cut 1", after measuring three or four times, and when I got it back it seems too short. The important thing is that it not bottom out against the output shaft, so shove it on all the way and see how much clearance to the pinion yoke you've got. You should have about 1" of yoke showing at the tranny end, with the rear axle at ride height.

3) I had heard that the C4 and T5 have the same length driveshaft. Is this true? Will the u-joint need to be changed (i'm assuming thats a yes)?

See "2".

4) I see most people buying used clutch pedal assemblies off ebay. Is there much risk to this? Do any of the major companies sell kits with the parts you need to install new ones (the NPD catalog had new clutch pedals and then piles of related parts, but i didn't see anythign like a kit... that might be asking too much, I suppose)?

Scott Drake makes a real nice bearing kit for the pivot shaft. I would put one of these on regardless, and this will also cure any egging out you might find in a used pedal support. If the egging out is real bad, you have to weld the bearing on, but at least it's a good fix.

I believe many vendors -- Modern Driveline? -- will furnish you with a kit with everything you need to convert from auto to T5.

5) Any opinions on hydraulic vs cable clutch? And any opinions on what clutch i should use?

The Z-bar is best. I can't comment on cables, but I've got a McLeod hydraulic throwout bearing and a JMC master cyl on my '65 and I do not like the lack of feel. I stall the engine all the time. (Maybe I should turn down the stereo.)

6) How much fox-body stuff can you use? I noticed bottlefed70 re-used a fox flywheel, and used a fox clutch cable and some other things. With fox performance components as plentiful as they are...

Don't know. I've got a Ram billet flywheel that's drilled for both the old style and the Fox, and it fits in the '65 bell with the '65 starter. I presently have a Fox style pressure plate by McLeod. I am very happy with McLeod. I would avoid Ram clutches.

7) How well do shifters like Pro 5.0s (the favorite of late models) work in classics?

They generally seem to require trimming a notch or two in the tunnel hole to fit the stop screws. This was the case with the MGW (gold handle) in my '65. But it's those stop screws that protect the tranny from the overshifting that so frequently destroys the T5.

8) I have heddman long-tube (well, i think they're considered longtubes, i suppose they're somewhat borderline) swap headers for my 351w.. will they interfere?

I don't know. I have no name tri-y's and they fit. Stay away from the Cal Pony cross member, though. These geniuses only recently started drilling the mounting holes in the right place, but they still use a parking brake bracket that points the lever right at the exhaust. Why not leave it at stock height? IIRC I got a usable crossmember from NPD. (I have a Cal Pony one -- with the mounting holes egged out so they actually match a Mustang -- for free if you want it.)

I also have a steel bearing retainer to give away. I've got the iron Medatronic one.
Click to expand...

Sure, how much do you think shipping'd be? This suggestion makes the most sense (thanks for the detailed response too... very appreciated). I'll search ebay and junkyards for a cheap but shifting t5, put the retainer and cluster gear retainer in myself, and see how it goes. I could try the cross member... if it doesn't work whatever.

Any specific shifter and flywheel/clutch recommendations?
 
#13
SadbutTrue said:
Sure, how much do you think shipping'd be?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure. Maybe $10? You want the cross-member and the bearing retainer? I would be very pleased to send these on to a new home. I'm cleaning out my garage of nine years of take-offs and other car project detritus and I hate to throw anything away. Use my email one 80 out at hotmai dot com if you want to follow up on this.

There are some bad years for the T5 that you want to avoid, the pre "World Class" years. Also, the '94 and '95 use a longer input shaft, which was required to place the shifter in a good spot in the SN95 platform. You have to change this out and use an older Fox bell or use an old-school bell with a machined spacer. I have a '95 in my '65, using the old bell and the spacer and a shorter input shaft.

Any specific shifter and flywheel/clutch recommendations?
Click to expand...
I came across so many recommendations for McLeod clutches that I went that way myself. I like my MGW shifter, but be sure to get the gold handle. The red one and the blue one put the ball too far away. Some people like other brands, partcularly those which allow the use of a Hurst style handle. The MGW does not.
 
#14
180 Out said:
I'm not sure. Maybe $10? You want the cross-member and the bearing retainer? I would be very pleased to send these on to a new home. I'm cleaning out my garage of nine years of take-offs and other car project detritus and I hate to throw anything away. Use my email one 80 out at hotmai dot com if you want to follow up on this.

There are some bad years for the T5 that you want to avoid, the pre "World Class" years. Also, the '94 and '95 use a longer input shaft, which was required to place the shifter in a good spot in the SN95 platform. You have to change this out and use an older Fox bell or use an old-school bell with a machined spacer. I have a '95 in my '65, using the old bell and the spacer and a shorter input shaft.

I came across so many recommendations for McLeod clutches that I went that way myself. I like my MGW shifter, but be sure to get the gold handle. The red one and the blue one put the ball too far away. Some people like other brands, partcularly those which allow the use of a Hurst style handle. The MGW does not.
Click to expand...

Anyone know if you can shorten a fox driveshaft (t5, v8, FMS aluminum) to use in a 66? I'm looking at a guy selling his t5 and he has a FMS aluminum driveshaft... might be able to save some money on an aluminum driveshaft if its long enough that I can shorten it to my needs (though the fox driveshaft might be too short to start with)...
 
#15
I have some different thoughts then what has been posted so far.

First pick your trans, I used a Tremec 3550 in my '65 coupe. I have made NO modifications and it fits- its real tight, but it fits. I did this on the advice of our moderator 2Bav8 (he used a TKO with no tunnel mods) about 7 years ago and I have had no problems.

Any aftermarket shifter should fit, but will make things even tighter, I use a PRO 5.0.

Use what ever flywheel you want it just needs to be 157 tooth and match the balance of your motor 28oz or 50oz, I think you may need a new starter if you are going from 164 tooth to the 157. I really like my Fidanza Aluminum Flywheel I just put on.

Then once you pick a trans, you have 3 bellhousing options:

1. Use an early bell, get a shortned input shaft (about $150) to replace the standard length T5 input shaft and the trans will bolt directly to the bell. Uses stock driveshaft and yoke.

2. Use an early bell and get the spacer plate (about $150) and use the stock length T-5 input shaft. May need to shorten driveshaft or change yoke.

3. Use a late model bell and the stock T-5 input shaft. May need to shorten driveshaft or change yoke.

I went with option 1, as I didn't like the idea of a spacer plate and I was able to use my stock driveshaft with no mods.

Then once you pick a bell, you can pick clutch linkage options

If you go with an early bell, you can use:

1. Stock style mechanical linkage
2. Hydraulic pull style slave ( I think someone just did a nice write up about this)
3. Hyrdraulic throw out bearing

If you go with a late bell, you can use:

1. Cable clutch (I have heard of numerous problems with running a cable clutch and long-tube headers)
2. Hydraulic push style slave
3. Hyrdraulic throw out bearing

You have LOTS of options and decisions to make about this swap. So start with the big pieces then you can narrow it down.
 
#16
coolblue65 said:
I have some different thoughts then what has been posted so far.

First pick your trans, I used a Tremec 3550 in my '65 coupe. I have made NO modifications and it fits- its real tight, but it fits. I did this on the advice of our moderator 2Bav8 (he used a TKO with no tunnel mods) about 7 years ago and I have had no problems.

Any aftermarket shifter should fit, but will make things even tighter, I use a PRO 5.0.

Use what ever flywheel you want it just needs to be 157 tooth and match the balance of your motor 28oz or 50oz, I think you may need a new starter if you are going from 164 tooth to the 157. I really like my Fidanza Aluminum Flywheel I just put on.

Then once you pick a trans, you have 3 bellhousing options:

1. Use an early bell, get a shortned input shaft (about $150) to replace the standard length T5 input shaft and the trans will bolt directly to the bell. Uses stock driveshaft and yoke.

2. Use an early bell and get the spacer plate (about $150) and use the stock length T-5 input shaft. May need to shorten driveshaft or change yoke.

3. Use a late model bell and the stock T-5 input shaft. May need to shorten driveshaft or change yoke.

I went with option 1, as I didn't like the idea of a spacer plate and I was able to use my stock driveshaft with no mods.

Then once you pick a bell, you can pick clutch linkage options

If you go with an early bell, you can use:

1. Stock style mechanical linkage
2. Hydraulic pull style slave ( I think someone just did a nice write up about this)
3. Hyrdraulic throw out bearing

If you go with a late bell, you can use:

1. Cable clutch (I have heard of numerous problems with running a cable clutch and long-tube headers)
2. Hydraulic push style slave
3. Hyrdraulic throw out bearing

You have LOTS of options and decisions to make about this swap. So start with the big pieces then you can narrow it down.
Click to expand...

What years/cars do the early bell's come off of? i am slightly concerned about the interference between the clutch and the headers. i like the early bellhousing/shortened tailshaft option though. i'm assuming when you say standard driveshaft length, you know i have a c4, not an older manual... right?

when it comes down to the target transmission... I can get a freshly rebuilt t5 for 500 or so locally. i think it makes sense to get that, make sure it has the internal upgrades that I can give it (steel bearing retainer, etc), and then get it and the rest of the package installed (clutch pedal, linkage, etc) and see how long it lasts. Right now, the engine probably isn't going to break a rebuilt t5 unless i really abuse it.

If (and i suppose when) i get the money and time to do the engine stuff, I can then look at upgrading from the t5 to a gforce/astro t5 or tremec, but at least in the meantime i'd get what i want (a manual) and the little stuff installed for now.

I think that logic works... heh.
 
#19
Rusty67 said:
I would not try to even push the T5 hard. Even a fresh WC T5 isn't going to live long behind the 351w unless you really treat it nice.
Click to expand...
Why do you say this? Have you broken one? I think a World Class T5 would be fine in a 400/400 street car with street tires that's not going to the strip. It won't last forever, but I highly doubt his car will see 50,000 more miles of use. There are lots of sub 10-second cars out there with T5s, and lots of T5s blown on the street with 300/300. Start reasonably cheap and see what happens. I think the WCT5 is a good middle ground without breaking the bank.
 
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