The Official kiddiccarus 2007 NFL Thread

jasonh_86 · Feb 11, 2008

Half of the defense was all the way to the locker room, it wasn't just Belichick. Why don't you get on Tom Coughlin's ass about it? After all, he walked out to the middle of the field to shake hands with Belichick as if the game was over..

There was 1 second left, they shouldn't have had to be out there anyways.

mrvax said:
Eli has been wildly inconsistant his whole career. Sometime during the Bills game, Gilbride made some much needed adjustments taking some of the un-neessary crap away from Eli and the receivers and Eli was able to play much better.

It's been very annoying to Giant fans for the past few years. We would see him play like Joe Montana then Ryan Leaf (almost) and switch back and forth. Never knew which Eli? The thing that pissed us off is since we saw the "good Eli" we were all waiting for him to straighten out. Then we began to suspect the playcalling.

If he always sucked, I don't think Accorsi would have sold the farm to get him. Since he did win a Superbowl, it was worth it. Giant fans hope Eli can continue to play well. This is his longest strech of good play. The INT he tossed in the SB was really on Smith. People that really believe he will return to suckiness have not been watching all his games. Just bad game highlites, of which he has had many.

I wouldn't trade him now for any QB in the league except Brady or his brother. Even then, the kid is still only 26. People may laugh at what I just wrote but Eli has a nutsack and is the ice man. Nothing as far as game situation pressure phases him at all.

Finally, he is a humble young man and always gives the credit to his supporting cast.

I give Eli credit for not throwing picks in the playoffs, but there were a few that the Patriots just flat out dropped during the Super Bowl... the main one that sticks out in my head was the ball Eli basically threw to Asante Samuel and he dropped it on that last TD drive.

Call me crazy, but Eli reminds me a lot of Rex Grossman. They're both inconsistent and seem to have a good bit of potential when the O-line holds up and the other guys do their parts. I've watched a few Bears games the past couple games and Grossman didn't look all that bad when the O-line didn't fold. I think Eli has done much better without Shockey and I wouldn't be surprised if they let him go whenever his contract was up; Kevin Boss really seemed to step up and fill the spot, plus he doesn't seem like a guy who would be saying "THROW ME THE BALL!!!!"

mrvax · Feb 12, 2008

jasonh_86 said:
Half of the defense was all the way to the locker room, it wasn't just Belichick. Why don't you get on Tom Coughlin's ass about it? After all, he walked out to the middle of the field to shake hands with Belichick as if the game was over..

There was 1 second left, they shouldn't have had to be out there anyways.

I give Eli credit for not throwing picks in the playoffs, but there were a few that the Patriots just flat out dropped during the Super Bowl... the main one that sticks out in my head was the ball Eli basically threw to Asante Samuel and he dropped it on that last TD drive.

Call me crazy, but Eli reminds me a lot of Rex Grossman. They're both inconsistent and seem to have a good bit of potential when the O-line holds up and the other guys do their parts. I've watched a few Bears games the past couple games and Grossman didn't look all that bad when the O-line didn't fold. I think Eli has done much better without Shockey and I wouldn't be surprised if they let him go whenever his contract was up; Kevin Boss really seemed to step up and fill the spot, plus he doesn't seem like a guy who would be saying "THROW ME THE BALL!!!!"

Comparing Eli to Grossman is like comparing Brady to Rivers.
Yes, they both throw footballs down the field.

The GM says Shockey will be back as part of a 2 TE set next year.

1990Coupe · Feb 12, 2008

jasonh_86 said:
Half of the defense was all the way to the locker room, it wasn't just Belichick. Why don't you get on Tom Coughlin's ass about it? After all, he walked out to the middle of the field to shake hands with Belichick as if the game was over..

There was 1 second left, they shouldn't have had to be out there anyways.

I agree that they shouldn't have been out there, but the fact still remains belichick and bradty both stayed in.. I can't get on coughlins ass because belichick came to him in, coghlin was celebrating, then coghlin stayed out there and didnt go in.. non of the gmen went all the way in and stayed in and didnt come back out... thats all we're sayin

jasonh_86 · Feb 12, 2008

mrvax said:
Comparing Eli to Grossman is like comparing Brady to Rivers.
Yes, they both throw footballs down the field.

The GM says Shockey will be back as part of a 2 TE set next year.

You can compare Eli to Grossman.. both threw a LOT of interceptions and had a LOT of fumbles this year. They both have good arms and can be really good when given time to throw and given people around them. Rivers is in that category with those two as well.

Had I made that remark before the New England game, i'm sure just about everyone would've agreed with me. But now that Eli actually had a few games that were decent you're going to hail him as a great QB and say he can't be put in a category with Rivers/Grossman.. give me a break. Remember week 12? 4 int's, 3 ran back for TD's in the Giants/Vikings game. So yeah, I believe you can stick him right there in the class with Grossman. Grossman led his team to the SB last year, so you can't say "Yeah, but Eli was in the SB."

Actually, after going back and looking... Eli had a passer rating of 79, Rivers had a passer rating of 82, and Grossman had a passer rating of 66. Grossman had 7 int in 8 games, Rivers had 15 int in 16 games and Eli had 20 int in 16 games. Grossman completed 54% of his passes, Manning completed 56% of his passes, and Rivers completed 60% of his passes. So yeah, you can stick those 3 into the same group.. Eli isn't anywhere near the Brady/Peyton/Favre group. He's more around the group of Trent Dilfer when considering SB-winning QB's.

jasonh_86 · Feb 12, 2008

1990Coupe said:
I agree that they shouldn't have been out there, but the fact still remains belichick and bradty both stayed in.. I can't get on coughlins ass because belichick came to him in, coghlin was celebrating, then coghlin stayed out there and didnt go in.. non of the gmen went all the way in and stayed in and didnt come back out... thats all we're sayin

Well of course the G-men weren't going to go in the locker room.. they were about to win the Super Bowl. You don't run into the locker room after you win a championship.

wht93gtEd · Feb 12, 2008

does any of the bickering back and forth really matter?

The season is over; Giants won Superbowl; NFC won pro-bowl /thread.

this thread should be closed because this nonsense is just going to keep going back and forth.

mrvax · Feb 12, 2008

jasonh_86 said:
You can compare Eli to Grossman.. both threw a LOT of interceptions and had a LOT of fumbles this year. They both have good arms and can be really good when given time to throw and given people around them. Rivers is in that category with those two as well. ....

Jason, I'm surprised at you. I can only assume you haven't seen many Giants games.

Never did Grossman lead his team down the field for 4th quarter come from behind wins. Eli has done this many times. Including the Superbowl. Yes, Eli's stats suck, but if you were a GM and you considered Eli and Grossman comparable, you'd be a worse GM than Danny Snyder by far.

In TB- the Giants had -2 yards and were down 7-0.

Eli responded by going 9 for 10 and leading 2 TD drives to give us a 14-7.

In Dallas, down 14-7, Eli leads a TD drive with 49 seconds to go.

In Green Bay, Eli is completely unfazed against the legendary Favre, in his house - Lambeau and in his conditions, Ice Bowl II.

I dont think any of these games could have been won without any of these things happening.

The Giants are #2 in the NFL in dropped passes. Many of Eli's INT's were a direct result of someone (generally Shockey) not running the correct route. Grossman's suckiness can be attributed to, well suckiness.

Here's a few things Eli just did that Grossman (and even Tom Brady) can only dream about:
There's only 2 QBs to throw game winning TDs when trailing under 2 minutes in the Super Bowl.

There's only two QBs to throw 2 4th quarter TDs when trailing to win the Super Bowl.

Joe Montana and Eli Manning.

Super Bowl XLII MVP against a 3-time champion dynasty that was 18-0.
I really don't think Rivers or Grossman are up for those things.

jasonh_86 · Feb 12, 2008

mrvax said:
Jason, I'm surprised at you. I can only assume you haven't seen many Giants games.

Never did Grossman lead his team down the field for 4th quarter come from behind wins. Eli has done this many times. Including the Superbowl. Yes, Eli's stats suck, but if you were a GM and you considered Eli and Grossman comparable, you'd be a worse GM than Danny Snyder by far.

In TB- the Giants had -2 yards and were down 7-0.

Eli responded by going 9 for 10 and leading 2 TD drives to give us a 14-7.

In Dallas, down 14-7, Eli leads a TD drive with 49 seconds to go.

In Green Bay, Eli is completely unfazed against the legendary Favre, in his house - Lambeau and in his conditions, Ice Bowl II.

I dont think any of these games could have been won without any of these things happening.

The Giants are #2 in the NFL in dropped passes. Many of Eli's INT's were a direct result of someone (generally Shockey) not running the correct route. Grossman's suckiness can be attributed to, well suckiness.

Here's a few things Eli just did that Grossman (and even Tom Brady) can only dream about:
There's only 2 QBs to throw game winning TDs when trailing under 2 minutes in the Super Bowl.

There's only two QBs to throw 2 4th quarter TDs when trailing to win the Super Bowl.

Joe Montana and Eli Manning.

Super Bowl XLII MVP against a 3-time champion dynasty that was 18-0.
I really don't think Rivers or Grossman are up for those things.

First off, Eli's name doesn't belong in the same sentence as Joe Montana's. Montana is the greatest QB in the history of the NFL as far as i'm concerned; Eli is a 1-time SB champion who had a lot of luck on his side.

Second... Did you not see the Bears/Bronco's game this year? I don't guess you did. Bears were down by 14 with 9 minutes left. Rex led them down the field for 2 TD's to tie, then in OT to win.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but Eli belongs in the same category with Rivers and Grossman until he has a solid season. Eli had more turnovers than touchdowns this year, so he's not out of that category. Had the Chargers been healthy, they would've been playing the G-men in the Superbowl. Rivers had the ability to take down the Colts in Indy in the Playoffs and had it not been for injuries would've taken the Patriots down in Foxboro.

So, by your reasoning.. Billy Volek is a great qb too, I guess. After all, he led the game-winning drive in the playoffs at Indy for the Chargers.

If Eli comes out next year and has a good year, then I will be more than happy to admit that he is a good QB and isn't in the same category as Rivers and Grossman. But until then, I won't.. a few good games doesn't mean a whole lot. He's had many more bad games than good games.

And again, i'm not trying to be an ass or start anything by this... this is just how I will view Eli until he has a full solid season. Is he AS bad as Rex? No, not quite. He falls between Rivers and Grossman in my eyes. However, I do believe Rivers and Eli will have a better year next year than they did this season.

mrvax · Feb 12, 2008

I can see how fans of non-Giant teams can nail Eli to the wall- ove rhis stats. But please, for the love of all that's holy, never, ever put in in the same sentance as Rex Grossman. If you promise to do that, I'll stop comparing him with Joe Montana.

BTW: I don't think the Chargers would have beat the Pats even if Rivers and crybaby were healthy. I don't think they could have applied the same pressure to Brady as the Giants did.

Mike97gt · Feb 12, 2008

mrvax said:
I can see how fans of non-Giant teams can nail Eli to the wall- ove rhis stats. But please, for the love of all that's holy, never, ever put in in the same sentance as Rex Grossman. If you promise to do that, I'll stop comparing him with Joe Montana.

BTW: I don't think the Chargers would have beat the Pats even if Rivers and crybaby were healthy. I don't think they could have applied the same pressure to Brady as the Giants did.

I agree with both you and the above post..

Eli is not montanta not even close but he is not grossman either..

I understand Eli was the SB mvp but really the MVP of that game was the D-line.. Eli SHOULD have been picked a few times on that final drive... He got flustered and got away with it..

But I agree with you about the chargers.. pats would have still beat the chargers. and you are right the giants put pressure on brady in creative ways that only a few teams are able to do with the front four..

the way I see this SB is kind of strange..

Had the patriots won the game they would have stolen it from a team that outplayed them.. but I think the giants got very lucky on that final drive both with dropped INT's and missed calls..

I know we will never agree on that but I have eyes and a DVR that pauses and rewinds so i can watch it over and over again and thats what i see.. They can spin it in the media all they want to make another manning hero but it was luck..

mrvax · Feb 12, 2008

IMO, a few plays and the game could have gone either way. Most Giant fans feel that way too. It was a close game.

jasonh_86 · Feb 12, 2008

mrvax said:
I can see how fans of non-Giant teams can nail Eli to the wall- ove rhis stats. But please, for the love of all that's holy, never, ever put in in the same sentance as Rex Grossman. If you promise to do that, I'll stop comparing him with Joe Montana.

BTW: I don't think the Chargers would have beat the Pats even if Rivers and crybaby were healthy. I don't think they could have applied the same pressure to Brady as the Giants did.

Alright, you got me.. Deal. I promise never to put Eli's name in the same sentence with "that other guy." Sorry, I was just a bit flustered this morning.. I didn't sleep well and woke up on the wrong side of the bed, then saw "Sounds from Superbowl XLII" on the tv as soon as I turned it on

Eli is turning out to be a good QB, but I think he needs to have a solid year next season to finally prove that he has arrived.. and honestly, I hope he has a great year; I hate to see people like that struggle. He seems like a nice guy and doesn't ever talk trash/yell at fans like some players.

I can't wait til the Chargers/Patriots game next year... should be rreeaaaaally interesting.

NKau · Feb 12, 2008

svttech76 said:
no other sports market is even close to the boston market in championships this decade so untill somebody catches up why don't you get lost.

You seem to really take this stuff personally.....

The Red Sox are a lot like the Yankees in my mind; I would sure hope they could win a world series or two having the monstrous payroll advantage they do over 80% of the teams in baseball. They were overdue by what, 100 years? They finally figured out how to buy a championship, good for them.

jasonh_86 · Feb 12, 2008

NKau said:
You seem to really take this stuff personally.....

The Red Sox are a lot like the Yankees in my mind; I would sure hope they could win a world series or two having the monstrous payroll advantage they do over 80% of the teams in baseball. They were overdue by what, 100 years? They finally figured out how to buy a championship, good for them.

Buy a championship?... blah blah blah. If teams "bought" championships, then there would be a LOT of other teams winning than the ones that are.

But as long as the Brewers or Phillies don't win a World Series any time soon, then i'll be happy.

NKau · Feb 12, 2008

jasonh_86 said:
Buy a championship?... blah blah blah. If teams "bought" championships, then there would be a LOT of other teams winning than the ones that are.

Not really, just teams like the Yankees, who pay roughly $80,000,0000 more PER YEAR in salary than any other teams in baseball (if you don't include the Red Sox; the Yankees only spend $40,000,000 more than the Sox do).

For 2007, the Yankees had a $189.5 Million dollar payroll, while the Red Sox were in that $143 Million dollar range. The rest of the top 20 teams are somewhere in the $75-100 Million dollar range.

If you don't think money should buy you a consitantly better team, you are a MORON. The Twins have been decent for a long time (with a $70M payroll), but they have an excellent farm system (like the Brewers), and obviously do a pretty good job of evaluating talent. Normally, they get the most out of trades when they are unable to resign good free agents because of what teams like the Yankees can offer them. They did mess up recently when they had better offers early on for Santana and probably should have taken one of them before he went to the Mets however.

In closing, I'm really glad the Red Sox didn't get Santana, and I hope they don't win another world series for another 100 years

jasonh_86 · Feb 12, 2008

I didn't read your post because I really don't care what you have to say.. this is a Super Bowl thread, not one for you to come in here bashing Boston sports.

Back in Black · Feb 12, 2008

svttech76 said:
te cows offesnsive line and the pats offensive line in the first game did a better job.. the pats offensive line appeared to be a step late all game..

plus watch the replay the giants did a excellent job of getting off the snap... the pats o-line seemed to be late getting in position all night..

plus if you are going to blitz the pats or the colts or any other great qb it has to get there FAST.. the giants were very succesfull in this when they did blitz

.

I agree and thats why I said two days before the game, "do it and do it fast". . . .wait, Mrvax. . .I think I might have a new CT

mrvax · Feb 12, 2008

jasonh_86 said:
Alright, you got me.. Deal. I promise never to put Eli's name in the same sentence with "that other guy." Sorry, I was just a bit flustered this morning.. I didn't sleep well and woke up on the wrong side of the bed, then saw "Sounds from Superbowl XLII" on the tv as soon as I turned it on

Eli is turning out to be a good QB, but I think he needs to have a solid year next season to finally prove that he has arrived.. and honestly, I hope he has a great year; I hate to see people like that struggle. He seems like a nice guy and doesn't ever talk trash/yell at fans like some players.

I can't wait til the Chargers/Patriots game next year... should be rreeaaaaally interesting.

If I was a Pats fan, that show would have been turned off in 2 seconds flat.
Eli does have to be more consistant or he will be grilled for as long as he plays.(He seems to not give a chit.)

Are you sure the Pats play the Chargers next year?

Back in Black · Feb 12, 2008

jasonh_86 said:
I didn't read your post because I really don't care what you have to say.. this is a Super Bowl thread, not one for you to come in here bashing Boston sports.

I think he took offense to the "unless you rteam has done what Boston has done, get lost " comment. And it is true that some teams in baseball have more money to spend than others. It does matter. Not that they go out and buy the best players all the time, but that they can afford to pay top scouts,top dollar farm systems, and when that player from the farm team turns out to be good, they can pay them what ever they want to keep them. Some teams don't have that luxury. Bonds is a prime example. He started here in Pittsburgh, he got good, his contract came up, we got nothing for him. Countless other players from Pittsburgh have gone that route. It sucks but thats for another thread.

mrvax · Feb 12, 2008

Back in Black said:
I agree and thats why I said two days before the game, "do it and do it fast". . . .wait, Mrvax. . .I think I might have a new CT

Quite sadly, mrvax doesn't have the magical power to grant CT's.
I'd have to be promoted to SN Admin. I'm merely a SuperMod. I can trash your avatar and make your sig look like a 4 year old did it if you wish...

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