This thing just won't fire

[Hairy W Bush]

Ok, it's a 1966 289 coupe. It won't get any spark. I have replaced: starter, starter wire, starter solenoid, distributor cap, rotor, point, wires, plugs, coil, voltage regulator, and I am STILL not getting any spark. I am getting power to the coil. After I got done replacing the points, I turned the engine over, but forgot about the ground to the coil. When I put it on, it won't even turn over. I got my neighbor over to check it with his dwell meter, and the dwell barely changed with the gap change in the points. I am pretty disappointed, but what can I do...it's so old.
Anyone here live around Palm Coast?

 

[D.Hearne]

Did you replace the condenser too ? If that's bad it won't fire. The condenser is the small cylindrical device in on the breaker plate the points are attached to.

 

[Hairy W Bush]

I did not. Do you think that could be preventing it from even turning over with the wire on the coil? because with the old points, it did, just no spark.

 

[D.Hearne]

No, it wouldn't keep the starter from working. But it will prevent it from firing. Is your battery fully charged ? There should also be a small short ground wire from the points to the distributor body in there too.

 

[Hairy W Bush]

yup, battery charged. and that little ground wire...I tried unscrewing it, but it just would not come loose. i did however clean the base of everything else that was exposed.

 

[latamud]

Harry,

here are a few tricks to test out your electrical system.

View attachment 207546

Your ignition switch might be bad. This has happened to me a few times where the key switch still works in the on and acc positions but not for START. I've even had new ones be bad out of the box.

Try jumping the solenoid. With the car in park or neutral, key off, use a pair of pliers or something metal to jump from the battery post to the small S terminal next to it. (The wire to the S terminal is the signal from the ignition Start) What should happen is the starter will turn over.

If it turns over then you know either the ignition switch or the wire between the switch and solenoid is bad.

If the switch is bad, repeat jumping the solenoid bat to S terminal with the key in the ON position. (The on position gives charge to the coil) jumping the terminal. If the timing is correct then it should fire up.

OR, if it wasn't turning over when jumping S terminal and you are sure the battery is good then the solenoid is bad. Or you have the battery wire and the starter wire mounted backwards on the solenoid.

Too confirm, try removing the battery wire from the solenoid and make it touch the big post on the other side. You don't want to leave this touching long, just long enough to hear the starter engage. You could also use channel locks and jump the two big posts. It bypasses the solenoid. If the battery is good and the starter doesn't crank then the starter wire is bad (possibly the copper end is separated from the wires?) or the starter is bad.

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OR, you might have your timing 180 off or even a few degrees off. To check for top dead center (TDC) on the #1 cylinder in compression stroke some people pull the plug and put a screw driver in there to feel the piston rise. Be careful if you do this, you want to hold the screw driver as you turn the crank over by hand (15/16 socket + 2-3" extension). I like to have a valve cover off on that side of the engine to make sure the valves are shut. But, if not I wad up a paper towel and plug the spark plug hole and turn the crank clockwise by hand. On the compression stroke the piston will pop the wadded paper out. The I use a feeler (screwdriver) to guide the piston to TDC. From there, I either install the distributor or if it's already installed I might just set the rotor to hit the nearest terminal, THE ROTOR SPINS COUNTER-CLOCKWISE. Firing order 15426378 for 289. 351W, roller 302 use 13726548. If you have a 351W cam or roller cam in a 289 you will need to use the 351w firing order.

Good luck, hope some of this helps.

-Bart

 

[D.Hearne]

I know it's not applicable to his situation, but not all roller 302's use the Windsor firing order. The non HO roller motors used the earlier firing order right up til the end of the std 302 in 91 in the Crown Vic/Towncar/Marquis. Some of the late 80's T-Birds are included in this too that used the "base" roller cam. The 91-92 Pickups and vans also used this F/O and cam as well.

 

[Hairy W Bush]

The motor does turn over, just when it's to the ON position. So, I can't just set it to on. It has to turn over. and it won't even when the coil negative is on.
If I need to jump the starter, I would want to do it from the positive end on the battery, correct?

 

[D.Hearne]

Use a plastic handled (or rubber) screw driver and jump it from the positive wire terminal (coming from the battery) to the "S" terminal in the pic. Just make sure the car's in park or neutral. You can hot wire the motor also by running a hot wire straight from the positive battery terminal straight to the positive side of the coil. If it runs this way, you've definately got issues with the ignition switch.

 

[Hairy W Bush]

I just did that and I got sparks right at that bridge.
does this indicate a bad distributor to coil ground?

 

[Hairy W Bush]

I should also add that when he used the dwell meter, it hovered right around 10.

 

[D.Hearne]

I just did that and I got sparks right at that bridge.
does this indicate a bad distributor to coil ground?

It's going to spark some when you make contact, but should activate the starter motor when you do it.

 

[D.Hearne]

Do you have a good, solid ground wire from the engine block to the battery ?

 

[Hairy W Bush]

I mean the sparks were a lot more than what you would normally see and it didn't kick the starter in the short time I had it there.
I tested that ground from distributor to coil and it is good.
and I don't know what ground wire you're talking about. the ground wire to the battery is right on the fender rail.

 

[D.Hearne]

I mean the sparks were a lot more than what you would normally see and it didn't kick the starter in the short time I had it there.
the ground wire to the battery is right on the fender rail.

Where is it connected to on the engine? Check the engine side connection and make sure it's got a bare metal to bare metal contact. If that's good and the starter still doesn't turn over, you've either got a bad solenoid or starter. I know you said you just changed these parts, but just because you installed new or rebuilt parts, doesn't mean those parts are good. I've seen many a rebuilt starter that was crap right out of the box.(ESPECIALLY rebuilt starters) Ditto for solenoids. last solenoid I bought wasn't worth crap. The damned thing was always getting stuck while cranking the motor.

 

[Hairy W Bush]

it's not connected to the engine. and like I said, the starter DOES work. just not when that wire is on the coil

 

[horseballz]

Hairy W Bush,
You said:

"After I got done replacing the points, I turned the engine over, but forgot about the ground to the coil. When I put it on, it won't even turn over. I got my neighbor over to check it with his dwell meter, and the dwell barely changed with the gap change in the points."

What do you mean by grounding the coil? The coil should have a hot wire connected to the + side and the - side should go to the distributor/points. The ONLY ground involved here should be the little wire from the points mounting screw to the distributor housing. If you actually have the negative (-) of the coil connected to ground, you are shorting out the ignition, will get no spark and may cook some wires/switches. Also, your coil and points should see only about 6 volts, EXCEPT when the starter is cranking/engaged. This is accomplished by a resistor wire between the ignition switch and the coil and then there is another wire connected in parallel to this circuit from the "I" terminal of the solenoid which is electrically connected to the terminal that goes to your starter, effectively giving your coil a full 12 volts while starting.

You also said:

"the ground wire to the battery is right on the fender rail."

The negative cable from your battery should be cleanly and solidly connected to the engine block or head to provide proper grounding to the engine and then have a heavy wire from the passenger side rear of the head to the firewall to provide proper grounding to the rest of the car. If your negative battery cable happens to have an extra/smaller wire, it wouldn't hurt to have that connected to the inner fender also/in addition. Remember that the engine is mounted to the car with rubber motor mounts that generally (maybe grounded/maybe not) isolate it electrically. Poor/improper grounding can be the source of many electrical issues.
HTH,
Gene

 

[Hairy W Bush]

that's what i mean. the negative wire from the coil to the point.
where is this supposed resistor wire?

I guess this could be the problem then. The only ground on the engine is the one on the back of the head to the firewall. where is the original spot?

 

[D.Hearne]

that's what i mean. the negative wire from the coil to the point.
where is this supposed resistor wire?

I guess this could be the problem then. The only ground on the engine is the one on the back of the head to the firewall. where is the original spot?

Attach the battery ground wire directly to the engine block. Make sure there's no paint at that point to interfere with the grounding. The resistor wire is the hot wire to the coil. It has a resistor built into the wire.

 

[Hairy W Bush]

well I'd go ahead and try that, but I had a couple mechanics over earlier and they determined that the distributor isn't letting the coil make power, so that's going to have to be replaced.