Those with homemade EGR delete come in here!

donsbad68 · Nov 3, 2005

OK guys, where does the plunger need to be for the best performance? The only position that keeps the CEL light off completely is when the plunger is all the way down. When its not held in place and allowed to go all the way out the CEL stays on. When its half way in the CEL only come on during full throttle. So my question is will the plunger all the way down hurt performance much? Thanks guys.

DD:SNSign:

vristang · Nov 3, 2005

I am not real sure I know exactly what you are talking about.

Are you disconnecting the plumbing for the EGR? And just looking to keep the cel from coming on?

If so, there are better ways. There is a plug you can buy on ebay that will keep the cel off if you remove the egr setup. It plugs directly into the egr sensor. Also, if you search through some old threads there is a write up on how to build your own with Radio Shack parts.

However, removing the egr will not improve performance, will most likely hurt fuel economy, and destroy your chances of passing emissions. Is this a track only car?

donsbad68 · Nov 3, 2005

I live in oklahoma there are no emission laws, i have a block off plate on the car...........the sensor is still there but i took the three bolts out like stated before in a removing egr thread and explosed the internal plunger. Depending on where that is is what im talking about. With the plunger fully depressed the CEL never comes on.

DD

18mustangs · Nov 3, 2005

vristang said:
However, removing the egr will not improve performance, will most likely hurt fuel economy, and destroy your chances of passing emissions.

:Word: Sing it brother! If it was a track only car I hope he would've invested in a Tweecer in order to turn the EGR off inside of the computer (the only real way of deleting EGR as you know!).
Tim

18mustangs · Nov 3, 2005

donsbad68 said:
I live in oklahoma there are no emission laws, i have a block off plate on the car...........the sensor is still there but i took the three bolts out like stated before in a removing egr thread and explosed the internal plunger. Depending on where that is is what im talking about. With the plunger fully depressed the CEL never comes on.

DD

Do yourself a favor and hook the EGR back up or get a tweecer in order to turn it off in the computer or you're running the risk of detonation. Here's why to run EGR:

The EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) system has two purposes, to reduce emissions, and to cool the combustion chamber by adding less combustible gases to the intake charge producing a cooler burn. This prevents detonation\pinging and reduces the formation of NOXs which occur at higher combustion chamber temperatures. EGR increases gas mileage, and EGR does not operate at idle or at WOT so vehicle performance at the track is not affected. Apart from “cleaning up the engine bay”, there are no real benefits to deleting EGR. Also remember that EGR is an emissions componenent, so some states may fail the visual portion of your emissions test if it is deleted or changed.
The only way to properly delete EGR is to turn the function off in the vehicle’s computer with a Tweeecer or other tuner. You cannot simply remove the EGR valve and cap off the EGR connections or tubes as you run the risk of detonation\pinging.
The computer adds a lot of timing in order to compensate for the less combustible EGR gases present in the intake charge. If you delete the EGR without turning the function off in the computer, the EEC is still adding timing to compensate for the presence of the EGR gases without the EGR gases present in the intake charge causing detonation.

Tim

vristang · Nov 3, 2005

donsbad68 said:
I live in oklahoma there are no emission laws, i have a block off plate on the car...........the sensor is still there but i took the three bolts out like stated before in a removing egr thread and explosed the internal plunger. Depending on where that is is what im talking about. With the plunger fully depressed the CEL never comes on.

DD

Are you just looking to keep the light off. If so then I guess holding the sensor depressed will work just fine.

I have done the block off plate with the ebay false sensor. I don't seem to have any drivability issues due to that. BUT, I wish I never had removed it as it is proving to be difficult to get it hooked back up now.

2000xp8 · Nov 3, 2005

My buddy owns a shop and a good 50% of the cars have the egr deleted, no problems, my car gets about 18mph with the mods in my signature, so it doesn't hurt gas mileage.
Just buy the egr simulator off of ebay and be done with it.

If you are going leave the sensor and plunger thing you speak of on the car, you might as well leave it hooked up.

Ozrunner · Nov 4, 2005

Yep agree with 2000xp8.

I removed mine years ago and just left the connections in the harness. Removal made no difference whatsoever to overall engine performance and I also have an in dash knob to adjust timing and I run 40 degrees total advance .

The last model of the Oz 5.0 Falcon's came from the factory with no EGR whatsoever installed.

JD

18mustangs · Nov 4, 2005

Ozrunner said:
The last model of the Oz 5.0 Falcon's came from the factory with no EGR whatsoever installed.

JD

Not to state the obvious, but no EGR on a car that came from the factory with no EGR is a completely different story than deleting EGR on a car that came from the factory that way since in the first case the computer thinks there is no EGR because the EGR parameters are not in the ECU's code, on the second the computer thinks there's EGR and compensates for it even if it's not there (leading to possible inaudible or even audible detonation) unless turned off in the ECU with a tweecer.

04sleeper · Nov 4, 2005

2000xp8 said:
Just buy the egr simulator off of ebay and be done with it.

Or go here.
http://fordfuelinjection.com/index.php?p=61

Speeds8erM-1 · Nov 4, 2005

EGR doesnt hurt performance? Well, maybe not but it's one more pita that can go wrong, something to fix, another source for vacuum leaks and it's more weight. Not much but still.

vristang · Nov 5, 2005

EGR shuts completely off at wot, which occurs before the pedal actually hits the floor. There is no effect on wot peak power.
The point is, the system can be fixed, and unless it is compensated for in the ecu tuning, removing the egr could cause more issues than repairing the egr and leaving the system intact. Many can get away with it, I certainly have for several years.

Just my opinion, but I don't see any performance gain to removing it, and I do see a loss in economy and a heavy increase in NOx.

Just my opinion, but removing the egr is like running a 160F stat just because you have a plugged up radiator. Yeah, it will work and keep the engine running, but it is far from ideal.

Many people pull the system in order to clean up the engine bay, or because the car never sees street duty. That is fine, but realistically, you should compensate for this with an aftermarket chip at the very least.
I guess that's enough ranting for now,
:Word:

Ozrunner · Nov 5, 2005

Not to state the obvious, but no EGR on a car that came from the factory with no EGR is a completely different story than deleting EGR on a car that came from the factory that way since in the first case the computer thinks there is no EGR because the EGR parameters are not in the ECU's code,

I only mentioned this as an illustration that EGR was not considered worthwhile so it was deleted by Ford but actually there's really not that much difference.....

on the second the computer thinks there's EGR and compensates for it even if it's not there (leading to possible inaudible or even audible detonation) unless turned off in the ECU with a tweecer

Ummm no not correct. The computer won't do anything without a signal from a corresponding sensor/s etc so it does not make any adjustments or compensations whatsoever, until it gets a signal that the EGR has actually opened etc. If it has been removed and disconnected then it is not going to open, therefore no EVP signal can be sent to the ECU and without this signal the ECU will not make any changes.

The plugins available for EGR removal are only to fool the ECU into not registering a fault code etc.

Michael Yount · Nov 5, 2005

With the plunger completely depressed, the ecu 'thinks' the egr valve is wide open. Under those conditions, it's programmed to add timing and pull fuel which often leads to lean detonation issues. Also, to Oz' points in his post before mine, a common symptom of failure of some part of the egr system is part throttle detonation. So there are LOTS of circumstances where the egr system has a partial failure of some sort - yet the computer still adds timing and pulls fuel - so it's not as simple as concluding that if the hardware isn't there, the computer won't try to do anything.

This is a complete non-issue in terms of peak performance as stated earlier -- at w.o.t. the egr is non-functioning; but with the plunger completely depressed and no egr valve to admit gas (which cools the chamber under part throttle conditions) you can have part throttle detonation issues.

As stated before, the proper way to manage it is to use a device to turn off the egr function in the ecu. Any other approach you're gambling with how the car is gonna react -- you may get lucky, may not.

Michael Yount · Nov 5, 2005

With regard to factory deletion of egr systems - it's not that Ford found it 'not worthwhile' -- it's that in some areas/countries/applications (trucks for example) emissions regulations are different and changing. They often save money by not having a vehicle run an egr system if they don't need to. As time has gone by, and efi systems have become more sophisticated, along with better combustion chamber design and more efficient catalytic converters - many systems have stopped using egr. That doesn't mean it wasn't required on our cars to meet the emissions regs with that efi system/ecu. Design engineers have known for years that egr would help with fuel economy and emissions -- it was just VERY difficult to control with carbs and mechanical timing. The advent of efi technology enabled them to manage egr in a way where it was workable. And in the last 10 years, we've moved past that too.

04sleeper · Nov 5, 2005

You should read about the emissions standards for big trucks that is comming in 2007 and then changing even more in 2010.

I have heard from several truck manufacturers like Mack and Peterbilt, that the trucks in 2010 will have to run so clean that in most major cities the air comming out of the exhaust will be cleaner than the air comming in the intake.

Imagine a bunch of giant air filters driving around.

Michael Yount · Nov 5, 2005

In 2007, low sulphur diesel fuel is mandated ($ will cost more) and that really helps the diesel guys with emissions. Particulates and NOx are the two that they have a tough time with -- and they're looking at egr to help with NOx and traps of some sort on the particulate fronts. International Truck and Engine is a client of mine -- I've seen their latest 'Green Diesel' engines run -- you can literally hold a white cotton handkerchief over the tail pipe for as long as you want -- clean as a whistle.

It's easy for us to get upset about these regs -- but if you want to see the other side of things, take a trip to China. Chances are you'll have a scratchy throat and be coughing within 24 hours of getting off the plane -- and it's because of air emissions. We've all benefitted from 'forcing' mileage and emissions changes on the industry. We're in the middle of the greatest HP war EVER, car performance is MUCH better than ever, and we do it all with vehicles that generally run VERY clean and get MUCH better mileage than they used to. Amazing.

I'm still pinching myself -- the Volvo averaged 26.5 mpg on a recent round trip of 650 miles to Augusta. Pretty incredible (to me) for a 3000 lb. 'brick' with it's level of performance and gearing. And I'd bet it runs cleaner than the 4 cyl. from 82 did...

mattys91gt · Apr 23, 2022

vristang said:
Are you just looking to keep the light off. If so then I guess holding the sensor depressed will work just fine.

I have done the block off plate with the ebay false sensor. I don't seem to have any drivability issues due to that. BUT, I wish I never had removed it as it is proving to be difficult to get it hooked back up now.

how do I put together this sensor

Mustang5L5 · Apr 23, 2022

mattys91gt said:
how do I put together this sensor

You need a trio of resistors. Solder the resistors to match this diagrams and connect to the pins as shown. I’ve built a handful of these. Not too difficult

mattys91gt · Apr 23, 2022

Mustang5L5 said:
You need a trio of resistors. Solder the resistors to match this diagrams and connect to the pins as shown. I’ve built a handful of these. Not too difficult

I thought it just plugged in another fail for me

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