To sway or not to sway?

[notny41]

Just put on some new front sway bar end links and bushings and it really improved the handling - best $12 I ever spent!!!

My car doesn't have a rear sway bar. I'm wondering will I feel even more handling improvements if I add a rear sway bar? If so, are they easy to add?

I'm not going for race track handling. Just wondering if I'd be as pleasantly surprised with a rear as I was with the front links and bushings?

Thanks

 

[HistoricMustang]

I think I will just drink a beer and watch this thread. The old members will understand.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

 

[brianj5600]

I know what you mean, but handling is a preference. Different people look for a different feels. It will change your handling, but you will have to decide if you like it. Tires, springs, shocks, bushings, air pressure as well as sway bars are a few things that can change the balance of a car. I'll answer for historic. Use that money that is burning a hole in your pocket to buy beer and sit back and watch this thread go. He prefers no sway bar on the rear. I hope I have not overstepped my bounds.

 

[notny41]

Good info.

I saw the historic site that said he prefers no sway bar, but I don't plan on doing any drifting...

I really like how it rides right now. How much beer could I buy if I didn't spend the $ on a rear sway bar setup?

 

[mustangdave]

I'll watch too but I probably won't read it all. I have heard that they came rip out of the frame though so maybe someone who experienced this will speak up.

 

[Mach1steve]

rear sway

I can only speak from my own experience, so here goes......

I upgraded the front suspension on my 70 Mach1 (Polygraphite bushings, 1-1/8" front sway bar, export brace, gas-a-just KYB's, monte-carlo bar, etc.).
I Track the car on a 2.5 mile Road Course (just for fun) twice a year, and wanted to improve the cars handling.

Then I went and bought a P-S-T rear sway (7/8"), much thicker than the stock bar.
When I put it in, it rubbed the inside of the rear tires (245/50-14's), so I had a choice of reverting to the stock bar, or going to skinnier tires. I sent the bar back and stuck with the stock bar.
This I decided after talking with a few Track guys who thought that there is defintely such a thing as "too much rear sway bar". They doubted whether I actually even needed one. They said that too much rear sway bar will cause the rear end to "come out on ya" or tail wag in unwanted situations, if you know what I mean.
Having way too much $$$ invested in this car (don't we all), to risk spinning it into a wall...... I took their advice.
Hope this helps you decide..........

Now...... having siad that, if you haven't added a 1 peice export brace yet, this is the 1st thing you should do to improve the cars handling (instead of buying beer) lol
Mach1steve
www.muggziperformance.com

 

[notny41]

I had an export brace on my 67 T5 when I was back in college. Just have the stock braces on each side. Maybe I'll do the export brace and still have some bucks left for beer.

 

[DarkBuddha]

There is one simple answer to this question... if your car understeers more than you would like, then a rear bar will improve the situation and reduce the understeer (or if you use too big a rear bar, you could end up with oversteer).

As for performance benefits, if you find that there is still too much body lean in the rear, then a rear bar would improve that situation as well. However, as mentioned above, if you add a rear bar it will effect the oversteer/understeer of the car. Balance is the key on the street.

Hope this helps.

BTW, if you want yet another different philosophy on suspension building visit: DarkBuddha's suspension modification steps

 

[Hack]

A leaf spring suspension has a lot of roll stiffness built in. Consider this, a rear roll bar will try to lift the inside rear tire off the ground on a corner - which causes the rear to have less total traction (tendency to oversteer at the limit of traction). What you want is for all the tires to do as much work as possible (close to neutral).

Dark Buddha's advice is good. Of course, if you only are driving on the street, you should never experience either over- or understeer. If you were trying to tune the car for racing, you might buy or make an adjustable front sway bar. Then you would adjust it so that the inside front tire is just barely skating on the ground at the car's limit of traction.

If you do decide to put a rear anti-sway bar on the car, I would advise you to weld in a metal plate to add strength to the frame rail where the bar attaches.

 

[HistoricMustang]

OK.....getting a little (I said little) to much info here.

Oversteer is exactly what you want in a performance situation. Remember professional drivers talking about how they would rather have a loose (oversteer) condition rather than a tight (understeer) consition. Always remember "loose is fast".

Early models by design are extremely tight (do not want to turn - understeer) so the idea is to simply "free up the rear". The question becomes can you "free up the rear" by adding a rear sway bar? I never could at the track.

Ideal is "neutral" and when someone figures out how to do that in an early model he/she will be driving a different Porsche each and every day.

Having said that, sway bars look kinda cool and they are neat to talk about with your buddies at the "cruise in" so they are just fine on a daily driver.

I will drink another beer.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

 

[skywalker]

I'll step in and say this: I see the major problem in my '68 being understeer. I drive on the street so it is not dangerously so, but my first few cars were imports which were all neutral to oversteer conditioned cars, and understeer annoys me. You may feel the same way. I plan to add a rear sway to mine. I'd say to spend the money (beer tastes like piss anyways, drink jack and jaeger) on a rear sway, if you don't like it, send it back. I think you probably will though.

 

[reenmachine]

beer tastes like piss anyways, drink jack and jaeger)

I could never trust someone who doesn't like beer.

Just one thought on this topic. Avoid the notion (which the vendors want you to believe) that just because a "performance" part is available you need it. Sway bars (like different spring rates, different dampers, fat front bars, etc.) are appropriate in some, not all, situations. It all depends on how your car performs and how you want it to perform. Most people think that more trick parts means higher performance, and this couldn't be further from the truth.

For example, I race an '83 RX-7 in SCCA club racing. It is a front engine/rear drive setup with a solid rear axle. Once the cars are gutted and race prepped to the extent permitted by the rules, they are very squirrely and quick to oversteer. Taking off the factory rear sway bar helps tremendously and changes the character of the car. So, in this case, less=more.

I just have to add a potentially volatile statement: most people who think they know how their car handles, don't. They know how their driver handles. Most of the big $ people spend on wild suspension setups would yield a greater reduction in lap times if it were spent on driver training.

 

[notny41]

...sitting back, watching the thread, and having a beer...

So far pretty convinced not to sway.

 

[Opentracker]

Well here it goes. Historics and I have a different idea about rear sway bars. He doesn't use 'em - I do and that's OK. Different opinions and uses of the same part is what makes a forum a good place to talk about it. My daily driver '64 Falcon wagon has a 1 1/8" front and 7/8" rear sway bars. My daily driver '64 Falcon Sprint has 1 1/8" front and 7/8" rear sway bars. Our '66 coup and our '65 coup both have the same thing. It is up to the driver to decide if a rear bar is in order. I like 'em and I use 'em on the track. I also have had two driving schools and thousands of laps around the road courses here in Calif. Soft springs, big sway bars and kyb shocks will make any Mustang or Falcon ride nice and handle well on the street. Koni shocks are what I use on the track along with some of my own mods to take the bind out of the stock suspension.


1 - vote for a rear bar and a case of BEER!



John

 

[Hack]

OK.....getting a little (I said little) to much info here.

Oversteer is exactly what you want in a performance situation. Remember professional drivers talking about how they would rather have a loose (oversteer) condition rather than a tight (understeer) consition. Always remember "loose is fast".

Early models by design are extremely tight (do not want to turn - understeer) so the idea is to simply "free up the rear". The question becomes can you "free up the rear" by adding a rear sway bar? I never could at the track.

Ideal is "neutral" and when someone figures out how to do that in an early model he/she will be driving a different Porsche each and every day.

Having said that, sway bars look kinda cool and they are neat to talk about with your buddies at the "cruise in" so they are just fine on a daily driver.

I will drink another beer.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

First off, both Historic and Opentracker know a lot more than me, having actually driven in races.

So far I've just read a lot about racing. However, one thing I've read which makes a lot of sense to me is this. Neutral to oversteer is better for short small tracks (pylons in a parking lot types) where you're not getting out of second or third gear. You can use the oversteer to get around really tight, small corners.

High speed racing.. you want understeer for safety. Spinning out at speeds over 100 is unlikely to have a good outcome for you or your car.

One other point I believe is important. Historic runs bias ply tires. The advantage for his driving style is that bias ply are more predictable near the limit of traction. If you are racing with sticky tires, high speed oversteer sounds very scary to me. Also back end out oversteer driving isn't necessarily the fastest way to get around a course - though it might look flashy or cool. I disagree with "loose is fast" as a rule. I definately don't want to run my first autocross event with an oversteering car, or even push it on a freeway onramp. I think oversteer is an unsafe setup for someone learning to drive quickly.

I don't drink - someone have a Guinness for me.

 

[2bav8]

Wow,

Everyone is behaving so nicely
Must be a full-moon or something, lol

My $.02
I use an adjustable rear sway bar with two settings (street and track).
On the street setting the handling is much better IMO and feels very well balanced compared to no rear sway bar. On the track setting, its OMFG: loose loose loose! I'd need a miracle to make that setting usable under any cirmstances.

 

[HistoricMustang]

Just call me "Mellow Yellow".

http://www.historicmustang.com/pearsonhenrywaveby.html

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

 

[Red Barchetta]

Without driving your car, knowing what suspension components you have, or knowing your driving style, telling you to install or not install a rear sway bar is a moot point. Before you do anything, you should understand exactly what's happening underneath your car. Read Herb Adams' Chassis Engineering. You might find out that after reading the book, a rear bar is not what you need for your intended use. Or, maybe it's exactly what you need. Educate yourself first as you will get opinions both for and against. And when the time comes at least you'll be able to make an educated decision based on facts, not simply on people's personal preference.

If you do decide to get a rear bar, I can not stress enough, get an adjustable bar. Once again, read Herb Adams' book and you'll understand why.

 

[skywalker]

Comment deleted as a drunken waste of time.

 

[VictorII]

Just put on some new front sway bar end links and bushings and did it really improved the handling - best $12 I ever spent!!!

My car doesn't have a rear sway bar. I'm wondering will I feel even more handling improvements if I add a rear sway bar? If so, are they easy to add?

I'm not going for race track handling. Just wondering if I'd be as pleasantly surprised with a rear as I was with the front links and bushings?

Thanks

My experience....after trying the cheapo PSTs (?), I went with adjustable Stambars. I bought a 1" for the front and an 11/16" for the rear. When I bought them, the cost was not much more that the cheapo's; they probably cost more now. After playing with the adjustment, the body roll is almost gone. I want a little so I don't hook (oversteer) but not much. And if I want to go into a four wheel drift, these things are ready. They are spring steel where I belive the PSTs are cold rolled and not as strong. The PSTs were just ok, but not a lot different than stock (there was no rear, granted). The adjustables let you put the handling right where you want it. And you can keep the stock rubber suspension bushings for a decent ride (without that annoying squeak the you get from poly, which I also tried...and yes, I used every lube know to man when I kept trying to get rid of the squeak). I use greaseable poly bushing for the bars and that keeps them lubed and quiet but very firm during a turn. If $$ are a problem, then a 3/4" cheapo rear will be noticeable and it might be enough for you. Plan on an afternoon for installation. Again, this is my experience........