Roush Too many cars killing resale?

ponyguy · Oct 26, 2004

Do you all think Saleen is making too many cars and resale values are hurting. I look on Ebay and there are a lot of nice cars out there at good prices. They aren't exactly holding their value???

At 500 to 1000 cars a year depending on year, it isn't exactly what I would call a "rare" car by historical standards?

Thoughts/comments??

Saleen Mike · Oct 26, 2004

I will have to check my numbers, but I think Saleen only hit the 500 production mark twice (1989 & 2000) in the past 21 years, and never did make 1000 in a year.

There is definatly a different buyer this past 10 years than the first 10, thus a different thinking when selling them.

ponyguy · Oct 26, 2004

ok, but even at 500 a year, this really is starting not to qualify as a "rare" car. don't get me wrong, i love Saleens, and love that i can find a good deal on them, but claims of holding value better than competition such as vette i am not sure are very founded anymore.

and yes, i see your point about the shift in buyers. this has been good for saleen and perhaps bad for the enthusiasts if you know what i mean.

Saleen201 · Oct 26, 2004

How many mustangs are made each year (100,000+ ) and lets say 500 are Saleens, and thats not rare?

What exactly do you consider rare (not being an ass, i am currious).

-Mike

Saleen Mike · Oct 26, 2004

I forgot about 2001 & 2002, so make that 4 out of 21 years.

With about 3000+ cars over the past few years (99+), there may look to be a bunch out there for sale, but I'm guessing it is still less than 1% of the "New Edge" style Saleens up for sale at any given time.

Now, if you want a "Rare Saleen" you can make me an offer on my '85, as there are not too many "4-eye" & Carb'd Saleens out there.

Saleen Mike · Oct 26, 2004

Saleen201 said:
How many mustangs are made each year (100,000+ ) and lets say 500 are Saleens, and thats not rare?

What exactly do you consider rare (not being an ass, i am currious).

-Mike

True.

The "Mustang guys" consider the Cobra to be rare compared to a GT, etc.

Some years Ford has churned out more Cobra's than Saleen has made in two decades of production, so, why would a Saleen not be rare?

ponyguy · Oct 27, 2004

as a former corvette guy and now a mustang guy i think sometimes people get a little wierd and carried away with this i have the only one made with Gray ashtray cover and A/C, realisitically all Saleen's built in the last few years are the same car. you can always come up with some weird combination.

from a historical perspective what's a rare car, anything under 100 meaning entire production, less than 100 exapmles of any variation. not 100 per year of the same car for 10 years.

when things get to the thousands, it needs to have a great pedigree, like a Ferrari. is a 308 Ferrari, rare, nope. is a front engine Ferrari Daytona Spyder yes, 427 Cobra, 250 made with an amazing racing pedigree.

needs to be VERY VERY unique, if we look at cars that have truly gone in up in value they were VERY limited production.

so in Mustang world they are rare, in collectors car world, not so much. that is my distinction. now 30 years from now, if you have a extremely preserved 'rare' example with less than 10,000 miles maybe you will have somthing. i.e last S351 built, or SA-10, but if you have a run of the mill 2000 S281 SC, i just don't see it.

and an even simpler test, if you can pop up the internet and find 25 of basically the same car for sale at any given time, i say it is not rare.

not to be an a$$ either, just my take.

sal07b · Oct 27, 2004

Rare and value depends on the enthusiast as far as I'm concerned. Lets consider the Shelby Mustangs of the 60's. I'm sure no one would disagree that they are considered rare, and are much sought after. What are the production numbers for these cars? Let's look:

Year Production

1965 562
1966 2,380
1967 3,225
GT 350 1,175
GT 500 2,048
1968 4,451
GT 350 Fastback 1,253
GT 350 Convertible 404
GT 500 Fastback 1,140
GT 500 Convertible 402
GT 500 KR Fastback 933
GT 500 KR Convertible 318
1969-70 3,294
GT 350 Sportsroof 935
GT 350 Convertible 194
GT 500 Sportsroof 1,536
GT 500 Convertible 335
Totals 13,912

Those aren't small numbers, yet the cars are definately considered rare and are very popular. The issue is this, for a Shelby enthusiast no other Mustang will due. They are a dedicated bunch. You'll never find a Shelby poll that shows an acceptance of Shelby "clones". The sad thing is that to many Saleen owners don't "really" care that they own a piece of history. Given the production numbers above we should realize that the Saleens, according to the numbers, are more "rare" then the prized Shelby's. Something to think about...

ponyguy · Oct 27, 2004

sure, but one could also argue that shelby has a more racing pedigree and heritage. mainly due to success outside of the united states. also look at your list and i suspect you can fuigure out which shelby would be worth most or at least hardest to come by.

i guess the distinction is rare within a small circle (i.e. mustangs) or rare in the grand scheme of cars. similar to being "world champions" when you have never played anyone outside the United States. just some food for thought.

sal07b · Oct 27, 2004

The ones that are worth the most are the ones that are the closest to stock. I fully suspect that this will be true for Saleens in the future as well. That is why I have yet to do much to mine in the way of "changing" it. I also looked up the GT 350H's (Hertz rental cars). There were 1000 of these cars made in 1966. They are going for about double (54K vs. 26K) the price of a 1966 GT 350. This is of particular interest to me considering I have one of the Budget Saleens (1 of 118 total; 30 - 1996, 88 - 1997). I've been researching my car to understand the "future potential". It also has the color and the fact that it is a 5-speed going for it. Your car is rare due to its color and interior combination. I'd keep it if I were you.

As people continue to modify their Saleens, the original cars are going to become more and more rare. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people shouldn't modify their cars, people should do what they want. However, the stats show that only 25% of the Shelby's are still in existence. Of those, finding one that is "original" is difficult. Those that are, are pulling top dollar, and frankly, aren't for sale. That's why I love owning this car.

You should know, I'm one of the ones that voted against the "clones". If it isn't real, it's just a modified Mustang. As the owner of a "real" one, I have a bias towards them (not that there aren't some "nice" clones out there...)

ponyguy · Oct 27, 2004

i know what you are saying, but if you are soley concerned about future value i can point you to 1000 other better investment options.

and yes originality is extremely important as is mileage, but to me, once you go over 10,000 miles you shouldn't be too concerned with mileage.

and don't worry, i am not getting rid of my car. i can't guarantee though it will not get a supercharger soon though.

Saleen201 · Oct 27, 2004

ponyguy said:
i think sometimes people get a little wierd and carried away with this i have the only one made with Gray ashtray cover and A/C

so true

I agree with mostly everything stated so far. I modify my car because 1)190 HP stock just isnt going to cut it 2) i really dont consider it rare and in the end its still just a mustang.

-Mike

marcus95 · Oct 27, 2004

A nice 65 GT350 will set you back at least 70-80K these days. You can still find a 66 in the low 60's regardless if its a Hertz or not. I have been looking for 2 years for the right 65 GT350. Sal, please tell me where in Arizona they have 66 GT350's for 26K. Please. I'll buy four of them.

ponyguy · Oct 28, 2004

i am not sure about the prices some muscle cars command, are they worth it, big block chevelles going for $100K. come on, its not that great of a car. and realisitcally and new mustang GT will give a boss 302 a whoopin on most tracks.

i was talking to a friend of mine the other day and we were thinking as the baby boomers age more will these values hold, will a 20 something today care about a boss 302, or a yenko camaro. hard to say.

sal07b · Oct 28, 2004

Marcus,

Check this out:

http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/6/5/76329865.htm

There is a GT 350 in Tucson for 59K as well:

http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/1/0/76127410.htm

marcus95 · Oct 28, 2004

sal07b said:
Marcus,

Check this out:

http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/6/5/76329865.htm

There is a GT 350 in Tucson for 59K as well:

http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/1/0/76127410.htm

Thanks Sal.

Yea, the one one carcollectoronline is a clone and that black one in Tucson is nice, he has been trying to sell it for a while. The only problem with that one is that even though the block is original it has been built. I need an original spec car even if its had a iffy resto it's ok with me.
On the subject of the thread with the exception of a few 428 Shelbys the 65 Gt350 is rare of rare, and of course that's the one I want. Damn. I missed out on one out here earlier this year for 75k. It was all original and unrestored. Missed on it by three days.

Thanks again.

S351R"Animal" · Oct 28, 2004

Look at it this way..How many of the Saleens will be in circulation in a few more years? Just like the Shelby's and Boss Mustangs some will be wrecked. Granted, the more options the better. Who would have thought the muscle car's would bring what they do today?

Yellow99Saleen · Oct 29, 2004

Its been almost 4 months since I have posted on this board, and I figured I would chime in now since I am in the process of looking for a replacement for my Saleen. I love my car, eventhough I have gone through some serious S**t with it and saleen. I have to agree with what has been said about the cars remaining closest to stock being worth more down the road. My brother wheels and deals at classic car auctions all the time. All he looks for is originality when purchasing a car to restore or sell for a profit down the road. If the car has lots of mods or changes he will try and get it cheap and use it as a driver.

Secondly, Saleen has been producing too many cars of late. 1999 had some 395 Saleens produced. By 2003 Saleen was approaching close to 1000 total vehicles a year. To me the only ones made recently that will be worth anything are the extreme models. My 99 which has some weird factory options and is apparently only one of 2 like it made that year is barely getting crap in the way of offers. Its not a 10 of 10 anymore, but its has no scratches or blemishes, the interior is perfect, and I have every record of the car in a book.

I also believe saleens reputation for horrible customer/dealer reltions may have something to do with the price. But like it was stated above, when it comes down to it its still just a mustang. But this new chassis and car that they recently unveiled may help us all out if they get their act together. Just my 2Cents guys.

03-s281 · Oct 30, 2004

Saleens havent been made long enough to argue what they will be worth.
Now, if Saleen stops making the car and in 20 years then lets see what they are worth. Comparing a Shelby that was made 40 years ago isnt quite fair. Lets wait till 2030 and see what the early Saleens are going for.

sal07b · Nov 10, 2004

That is pretty much what I was saying. I think they'll be worth a lot given the time Shelby had had...

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