toploader info.

[none67]

hey, can someone give me ahand?

28 spline close ratio Toploader, came out of a big block mustang. is it good? i mean i know its good, but can the 28 spline take a beating? and is the close ratio better or worse than the wide?

kinda out of the blue questions but i need some quick answers, thanks.

 

[D.Hearne]

If it's from a big block Stang, it will be a 390 specific Toploader. The other big blocks came with 31 spline Toploaders.As for what it will handle, I ran 28 spline Toploaders behind a side oiler 427 back in the 80's without durability problems. The one problem you will run into is with the input shaft length of a 28 spline 390 Toploader . The front snout is 5/8 inch shorter than the other small block Toploaders and if used with a small block bellhousing or a pickup truck FE ( 390 ) bellhousing, the input will not reach into the pilot bushing. This leaves the input unsupported and will lead to the input bearing breaking and possibly ruining the input shaft itself ( the input is also 4th gear.) You can change the input shaft to a longer small block one, but this involves taking the whole transmission apart to do it. If you choose to do this and don't want to do the job yourself, I can do it.

 

[D.Hearne]

Also the difference between a close and wide ratio, mainly involves first gear. The close has a 2.32 first, the wide has a 2.78 first. I prefer the wide ratio. But a 2.32 1st isn't as big a handicap, if you have a really low rear gear such as 3.70 to 4.11's. And the 28 spline Toploaders will handle up to about 600 hp.

 

[flyer351]

Go to Dan Williams Toploader http://www.toploadertransmissions.com/contact.html

He sent me a new input shaft for my 28 spline toploader (used to be behind a 390) for $150 a few years back. I replaced it myself. He'll send you the instructions to do it, but here's the skinny.
-Locate a dummy countershaft (I made mine out of a wooden dowel rod) which is just slightly shorter than the original one.
-Drive the coutershaft out using the dummy shaft.
-Because the dummy shaft is shorter it will drop the entire countershaft and assembly just enough to replace the input shaft.
-Replace the input shaft.
-Position the dummy countershaft centered in the correct location
-Drive the dummy out with the original.
And viola An adapted 390 toploader that will work on your small block.

I spent many hours doing the research, but the actual procedure only takes an hour or so. Very little disassembly is required.

Dan Williams is a good dude and will help you out.

 

[none67]

well i was going to rebuild it anyway as its been sitting in storage for the last 20 years..

i don't like the sound of all these problems i'm going to run into, but i really didn't want to use a 25spline so i guess i have no choice, plus it price is good.

so besides the input shaft having to be replaced, what else do i have to look for?

 

[none67]

actually apperantly the last car this tranny was used on was a small block comet.. it says this :

"The input shaft is approx. a little over 1 inch and has 10 splines.The total distance from the tip of the input shaft to the end of the out put shaft is 31 inches."

so maybe its already converted? i hope so.

 

[D.Hearne]

Just look for the ID tag on the right side of the main case. To look up the application, you can go to www.4speedtoploaders.com , this is David Kee's website ( Dan William's competion) he's got several ID chart's there that you can use to check out what exact application any Toploader came from. A 390 specific Toploader's front snout is about 3/4 inch long, a small block one is about 1 1/4 inches long. This is the length of the snout that extends forward from the splined portion of the input shaft. David Kee is also now manufacturing NEW Toploaders from all new parts, this includes the main case and tailshaft housing.

 

[none67]

well guys, i just bought my very first toploader!

i was just woundering if any of you had ever spoted a "problem area" that i should look for while rebuilding it?

oh and anyone know how much this thing weighs?
thanks

 

[D.Hearne]

I've rebuilt two of them, but as for "problems" I didn't have any doing either one. Simple hand tools are all the tools needed besides a good pair of snap ring pliers. Toploaders weigh in at about 100 lbs.

 

[none67]

A 390 specific Toploader's front snout is about 3/4 inch long, a small block one is about 1 1/4 inches long.

so does this mean i need an 1 1/4 one or can i use the 3/4?

 

[none67]

so does this mean i need an 1 1/4 one or can i use the 3/4?

or can i just use a FE bellhousing? (is there a way to make it fit?)

 

[ratio411]

The nose that goes into the crank bushing is too short on an FE tranny, as you have been discussing...
Some things I'd like to add:
You can use the FE tranny as is if you get a long crank bushing to reach out to the short nose.
You can get them to adapt this tranny to an SBF, but it takes some looking. Dan Williams would probably have one.
You say the tranny is 31" long?
Sounds like a long shaft toploader... Not saying it can't be adapted to a Stang, but no Stang ever came with a long shaft tranny, so you will have to fabricate alot of parts and hybrid parts from long shaft cars. Alot of guess work.
There seems to be alot working against you. In the end you will have just as much money in this tranny as you would spend on a short shaft/wide ratio tranny that would be much more user friendly. Install would be much less of a headache too.
Use your own driveshaft and crossmember, use off the shelf Stang shifter and intall kit, and save front bearing problems by using the SBF input.

What is wrong with a "25 spline"?
I don't know the differences between 25 and 28 specifically, but I do know the lowest rated toploader is said to be 500 hp.
Is the 25 spline the SBF tranny?
If so, it doesn't matter much...
Ford did 250 7000 rpm clutch dumps on slicks with a drag modded SBF in the late 60s as a publicity stunt for the toploader and never broke it.
Sounds pretty strong.
Dave

 

[none67]

i got all the codes and stuff that says its from a 68 mustang with a 390. i guess i will just have to replave the input shaft. no way around it.

oh well.

i was just saying that the 25 splines have had a history to break under major stress.

 

[ratio411]

If it's a short tail, just get the deeper crank bushing.

 

[none67]

do they make thoughs? if they do it would save be a lot of hassle.

 

[ratio411]

yes

 

[none67]

do you know where? i've been looking for awhile and came up with nothing.
thanks.

 

[D.Hearne]

i got all the codes and stuff that says its from a 68 mustang with a 390. i guess i will just have to replave the input shaft. no way around it.

oh well.

i was just saying that the 25 splines have had a history to break under major stress.

A 68 Stang 390 Toploader will work in a small block car as Dave said, just , you'll need either that long pilot bushing or a small block input to work. The early 25 spline was an attemt by Ford to limit the parts bin stock between using both the Toploaders and Bord Warner T10's at the same time in production. ( the Borg Warner T10's also had 25 spline output shafts) One other thing about the 390 Toploader, some have a "dual" bolt pattern for the shifter on the tailshaft, some don't. Use the rear most pattern for you small block, If there's no dual pattern, then you may have to cut the shifter hole in the floor bigger.

 

[none67]

thanks D, and ratio. you guys have been helpful to the extream.

i just have one last question.. what is the shift pattern for this? i see some that are like R on the far left top, and some R on the far left bottom.

But mine seems to be R directly under N.
whats the deal?
thanks.

 

[D.Hearne]

The pattern depends on which shifter you have. A stock Toploader 4 speed pattern is: reverse is to the left and down, Hurst reversed this to left and up, to avoid missed 1st to 2nd shifts, ending up in reverse. All that was necessary to do this, was to move the shift lever for reverse 180 degrees from the up position to the down position on the side of the transmission.